When one parent has BPD and one has NPD

[tryintogetby]

Hello,

This workshop is specifically for children who have a BPD/NPD parent *set*, as opposed to just one or the other.  Here we will discuss issues that are unique to our backgrounds, as well as share resources and encouragement.

I recommend the following websites and books for anyone dealing with a BPD/NPD parent set, and would welcome any other suggestions:

Joan Lachkar's paper on NPD/BPD couples: bpdfamily.com/topic=98299.0  

Of course, two valuable books that are frequently mentioned elsewhere on this site: "Children of the Self-Absorbed" for non-NPD's, and "Understanding the Borderline Mother" for non-BPD's.  

I have not yet read Lachkar's book: "The Narcissist/Borderline Couple," but you can read a bit of it on Google books.  

[Skip]

Joan Lachkar's paper on NPD/BPD couples... .[/i]

This is a very worthwhile topic - thanks for starting it.

Joan Lachkar's book is reviewed on our site:

https://bpdfamily.com/book_review/index.htm

[blackandwhite]

Tryingtogetby,

This is a great idea for a workshop. Let me ask a question of you and others with BPD/NPD parent pairs. What do you think are the particular issues you face as a child of such a couple?

B&W

[Ankakusu]

I discovered recently that I've been unconsciously attracted, almost exclusively, to narcissists. (Incidentally, my ensis married a woman with some BPD traits).

I have a hard time letting go of the idea that I have to try to be perfect.


There are tons more but it will take some time to figure out what they are... .

--Ankakusu

[tryintogetby]

Here's a few unique issues, but they're just off the top of my head:

(I really want to compare notes with other children of two PD's.  Let's call them Non2x's for short.)

1) Non2x's, according to Lachkar, watched their parents engage in a dysfunctional "dance," where the parents circled each other, attacked, fed off each other's needs and weaknesses, withdrew, and then came together again.  Non2x's therefore learned a variety of unhealthy and unique relationship patterns.  

These include, but are not limited to:

        a) "responding with blame and attack defenses"

        b)  needing to "get back/get even," to "teach the other a lesson" in any conflict

        c)  seeking out others to confirm feelings of entitlement

        d) turning to others in the external world for validation/confirmation or approval

        e) attempting to win back a relationship partner "at any cost", by playing the perfect, mirroring role.  

This list is compiled from reading Lachkar's work, and seeing, "I thought that's just how people were supposed to act!  I thought that was normal!"  I watched my parents get into thousands of fights, and points a-e were in every single argument they had with each other. I found myself repeating some (if not all) of these traits at various times in *my* relationships, before I realized that they were toxic.  

2) Non2x's (whether painted black or white!) are often "little go-betweens" and "little adults" in any conflict with a NPD/BPD couple.  I would wait, at the end of another explosive argument, for each of my parents to come to my room, and tell me how terribly wrong the other parent was. I learned how to agree with both parents, because to do anything else was to commit emotional suicide. Later in life, I discovered that in any conflict, I was unwilling or unable to speak truth into a situation, because I was so used to taking BOTH sides in any argument.  

       a) I also became an expert mediator, and the stand-in family counselor, at age 17.  

3) A borderline AND a narcissist parent both see the child as an "extension" of himself or herself.  As the product of a NPD/BPD couple, you literally have no one telling you who YOU are, only who they EXPECT you to be.  (I understand that many Non-BPD kids have this issue, but it is compounded in intensity when you're expected to be a perfect reflection of two totally different people.) You emerge from this family having no idea who you are, in the most fundamental sense of the word.  You only know who they TOLD you you are.  

I'm eager to see what other Nonx2's are out there, and what they struggle with.  

Thanks to Skip, Joanna, and B&W for your encouragement.

TTGB

[tryintogetby]

Ankakusu,

I only recently discovered that I didn't HAVE to be a genius! I totally understand!  xoxox

[Neal]

Let me ask a question of you and others with BPD/NPD parent pairs. What do you think are the particular issues you face as a child of such a couple?

- Not appearing to exist as a separate individual entity in the minds of either parent.

- Necessity of seeking 'normal' in people other than one's parents.

- The question of who will care for the parents in their elder years.

- The fragmentation of the family and extended family when/if the adult child achieves healthy autonomy.

- Independence issues with the parents regarding their child and how that child overcomes such.

- The nearly inevitable and pervasive psychological fall out the adult child experiences.


{tryingtogetby and I posted at the same time so similarities might be interesting.}

[Sandcastle]

I totally agree with what others have said, and here's some more, from an only child of Non2x's.

--living life according to their projected fears (i.e., you can't drive downtown/out of state alone, you can only go to this car repair place, you have to have a job with benefits.) But, yes, I can drive where I want to, and I'M NOT AFRAID TO DO IT!  I don't have to make my product choices based on Consumer Reports magazine, and I really can trust my own judgement.

--To never be allowed to say No, and not just to the parent; I was always expected to help in everything and lived with a lot of guilt if I didn't.  Now I can say no and not feel guilty!

--Tied in with the above, I was always submissive, eager to please and based my self-worth on how happy I made other people.  Parents were happy when I did what they told me, so I did.  And I was always quiet, being told too often that I had "weird logic" or teased or derided over just about every darn thing I said that went over their heads.  Always felt dumb and that Ndad knew everything, yet they never talked about anything more than mundane, "How's work/school? or house stuff." No real conversations about anything, and they say that I'm hard to talk to!

--Not allowed to get excited over anything; I still have a hard time getting excited and not feeling like I'm a nuisance.

--I was always subliminally waiting for someone to rescue me and show me how to live, especially a teacher figure or a lover.  Had to learn to live and to want things for myself.

--Being totally manipulated; momster with emotions (I wasn't allowed to feel, if I did, she said, "You're just tired," and Ndad just ignored me upset.) and Ndad with money (Yes you can have this, yes you can have it but . . ., no you need to do this, no you can't have it, oh I guess you can have it after all.)  Ndad never touched emotions; he couldn't understand them or empathize.  Momster only thought she did, but she couldn't.

--Worse was when they cornered me and tag-teamed; they would lecture (about money or my behavior) and momster would play the good, sympathetic cop and Ndad would be the logical cop and they'd tell me how wrong I was no matter how I tried to explain things.

--Oddness about money in general; buying things only if it's "worth it," some days I'd rather starve if I'm out and about rather than buy food.

--They kept telling me they wanted me to succeed and be happy, yet all they did was lecture and give "advice" that caused me to fail.  (my first apartment, my car, my college, the house they bought in this state and I was stupid enough to move into . . .)  They didn't actually help at all.

--Never really knew what love was, only knew I didn't feel it.  Was never truly understood by anyone in the FOO.  Never had a real relationship with anyone and do not have a partner.  (I'm 30.)

--TTGB said this, but I'll add something--the bit about being told who and what to be.  This extended to things; Ndad thought I should have a TV, he bought the one he thought was best.  Same with the car and the computer.  Again, it's not being allowed to have my own opinions and not being listened to when I do.  Not having a real sense of self, of who I am and what I really want, and what's best for me.  I'm amazed and honored that I have friends now that love me and actually know what's best for me without needing to be told.

--In a way, feeling like Ndad let momster have me just so she could have a pet to look after.  Seriously; she has a dog that's treated just like I was, something to take around and show off when it's cute and behaves well, but it gets a spanking when it doesn't and gets yelled at for doing what comes natural to it.  Ndad hardly has a part in its life except to play with it on occasion or buy it the usual toy.  The dog's job was to keep her happy.  So was mine.  Grrr.

--And this is one I've recently gotten over: Making a mess!  Yes!  Momster flipped if I made any sort of mess while cooking or playing with the bird or being creative.  I lived in a show home; no messes allowed.  Which means my apartment isn't as tidy as it should be, but, hey, I can make bread and get flour everywhere and not feel guilty. I never had anything other than fish or a cockatiel because it would make a mess.  Momster made me give up two of my cats when I had to move home.  Ndad actually likes animals just fine.  When I was in the dorms I overdosed on pets, trying to use them to get the love and understanding I never got at home.

--Momster said Ndad was gone so often when I was young that he'd ask me about something and not understand the answer because he had no context, so she would "translate" for me.  This continued; if I wanted something "big" or that involved money, I'd tell her, and then she'd talk to Ndad which made her look good.  I never could ask Ndad for anything directly, and lately, when I tried, I got lectured.  I always had to justify everything I wanted to him.  Arrrggghhh.  I still justify things to myself and other people.

And I think that's probably more than enough . . . 

[tine2]

My mothers uBPD, my dad's uNPD. Both are extremely emotionally stunted. My mother has clearly needed help forever and as a child I used to tell my dad he needed to get her help, that she wasn't normal. He ignored me, ignored her. Most of the time he blamed me for her episodes. Shamed me. Yelled at me. Hit me sometimes. Asked me to apologize to her for things I hadn't done. And/or he'd take me into his confidence and tell me how unhappy he was, how lonely, etc. He'd ask for my advice. He'd sleep in my bed because he was so lonely. NEVER once did he EVER think about me and how my mother's craziness and their nuts-o relationship was effecting me. When I finally started acting out in high school, he'd berate me: Why are you doing this to ME? Why are you trying to embarrass ME? What have I ever done to you that you're trying to hurt ME this way? On and on. Sometimes I'd try to explain: high school kids who start getting bad grades and getting into trouble out of the blue are expressing unhappiness, maybe depression, something's not right at home, etc. He didn't listen. Nothing was ever about me. There was no me. I was only and always an extension of him and of her.

When I started dating, then I'd get: Why don't you like boys who are more like me? Why are you interested in these guys who aren't like me at all? What do you see in them? They're not like me at all. Seriously! 

We were completely isolated from extended family and neighbors. Both my parents were hyper-critical of everyone in the outside world: my teachers, coaches, friends, friends' parents, all of my relatives, and of course, me.

I used to pray/fantasize that someone (an adult) would see what was happening to me and save me. I used to fantasize a lot. And hide in books.

Our home was a sterile show house, too. It never looked lived in. We could never leave a mark, a crumb, a drop of water. Nothing. Not even a footprint on freshly vacuumed rugs. We had to vacuum all the time. I had to clean the entire house every weekend top to bottom. I even had to clean the house top to bottom before the cleaning lady came. (They hired one once. They didn't have her come back because she wasn't clean enough!)

We couldn't make noise. Couldn't laugh freely. Or show emotion. I kept a poker face. I tiptoed around.

There were no boundaries. My parents searched my room all the time, searched my bags, my notebooks, even went through the garbage cans to see what I was throwing away. They even taped together notes and papers I'd ripped apart before throwing away. Then they'd let me have it for being so secretive.

My mother's rages, paranoia, and silent treatments were ignored by my dad except for when he'd finally had enough of her and then he'd yell at her and then invariably he'd turn on me. Both of them would.

My mother took me into her confidence. She was unhappy with him because he didn't/doesn't communicate. Plus he never shows any emotion, any interest in anything. She wasn't getting what she needed from him. As a kid, and on into college, I started trying to get him to be nicer to her, show more attention to her, take her out on a date, listen to her, buy her a present, etc. Got nowhere with that.

Still, they're bound to each other. Incredibly codependent. In groups, they never leave each other's side. They speak for each other.

I can count on one hand the times I've had a phone conversation with him alone, without her on the phone, too. (Not that I'd want to.) When they're both on the phone, she does all the talking and he just sits there listening.

That reminds me, when I was in college I had a few horrible moments where I very clearly needed help, support, understanding. I was cracking under the pressure of a lot of stuff, including serious depression (stemming from my childhood with them). Anyway, I called them, crying, asking for help. Telling them I needed help. I was nearly hysterical. They didn't hear me. They started talking about something else. Once - I will never forget - my mother started talking about David Letterman. I was in tears, had just asked for help, said that I needed to drop out of school for a while so I could get some psychological help, get my head on straight, and she started laughing about the Letterman show!

When my brother tried to kill himself during his senior year in high school, they sent him to a psych ward and when he got out, they sent him to me at college. They knew I was having problems there, yet they sent my brother to me so I could help him make up his late homework and term papers so he could graduate. They never ever spoke about what had happened. My mom just raged about my brother's teacher who'd found him.

I could go on and on... .How could I have ever actually thought any of this stuff was normal - or not so bad?

[tine2]

Tryingtogetby,

I meant to say: Thanks for this thread... .And for the mention of those books and articles. I didn't know there was any info out there on this rare breed of family. Aren't we lucky!

Tine

[busybee1116]

I'm obviously 3 years late to this thread, but I find it incredibly helpful and your replies even moreso.  I tried to read Lachkar's book, but the terminology was way over my head.  The article is much more digestible bpdfamily.com/topic=98299.0  My pair is uBPDm and uNPDd.  He's a covert narcissist and it took me awhile to understand why they stay together... .I now get the cycles of revenge.  I used to hope they'd divorce and then struggle to help them prevent it.  I spent a lot of time trying to "protect" him from her more obvious dysfunction.  I didn't understand that he gets quite a bit by staying with her and they'll never separate.  I became a convenient arm to their triangle especially when I tried to "help."  Because he was the more loving and caring, I saw him as the more "normal" adult and needed him to be so--I'm still dealing with the realization that both of my parents are disordered and that I have a lot of unknotting to do as a result.  In fact, my relationship with him is causing me more struggles, which was a shock to realize.  It's so easy to blame her, I've excused him (and myself) a lot.  His love was conditional and he expected perfection from me.  I have a lot of guilt and shame as a result and there's no end to my grasping because there's no limit to perfection, I can always try harder or do better.  I was a mini-adult at by age 6 (seated next to problem kids in class, a mother's-helper babysitter by age 7).  I relate to what TTGB says about not being seen/heard for who I am and getting appropriate mirroring at the right age.  I also learned to see both sides and have no opinion or emotions of my own. 

[Desire]

wow, Busybee--

I could've written every word you wrote! I'm only coming to terms now with the fact that my father has a lot of narcissistic traits and it's affecting me way more than my mom's BPD , which I've known about forever .

He was supposed to be the 'normal' one. The one who would save me. Yet he used me all those years. I was his confidante, his partner , the one who he'd come to to solve all his problems even when I was really young and shouldve been worrying about other things.

IT was never about me. ALL my conversations with him was about how to make him feel better, how to help him, how to please him... . Yet he criticized me all the time and demanded perfection in almost everything... . He only gave if he can find a way to get it back. Or get it back threefold usually. He never allowed me to be my own person, have my own opinions or ideas. He made me feel unworthy and that I'm nothing without him.

I still love him so it's very difficult to even write this down... .  

I guess I need to get it all out though if I want to move on

[pessim-optimist]

It feels so good to read others' experiences and to be able to identify with them. Thank you for this thread.

I have always known that our family was 'weird' and full of conflict. But I have only recently come to realize that my extremely educated, professionally successful, yet socially awkward parents are a BPDmom/NPDtraits-dad mix.

The thing that was hardest for me was the over-all confusion. The appearance of normal - yet not normal at all. The fact that I was told I could be/do whatever I wanted, but in reality only if it resonated with my parents' likes and wishes. That they told me they were proud of me and I was smart when it did not matter and when it did mattter they only had criticism for me and made me feel incompetent. That they had no clue about life, yet proceeded to be THE mentors on how to do life... .How they had grandiose visions of what they would want me to become, yet limit all opportunities and discourage me with their fear-mongering etc. etc.

And the results - my perfectionism, not having any idea who I was, hoping that someone would give me 'the manual to life' and rescue me. Wondering why I felt so abnormal and damaged when I knew I was the 'normal' one in the family. Why I felt weak when I knew I am strong inside. Why I am so indicisive when I know I have strong likes and dislikes, yet I struggle to know what they are.

Very much like TTGB.

I intuitively knew that something was not right and I spent a lot of time outside of home, but I still couldn't escape it all.

The key discovery that was helpful for me personally was to find out that this is a normal result of growing up in such environment, and that it is a symptom, not me (even though it often feels like me) and that I CAN change and uncover and recover the person that I know is inside. I have been doing it for a while and it feels good. It feels like taking off an extremely small, ill fitting space-suit, and walking and breathing freely.

[tryintogetby]

It's been several years since I started this workshop, but after a major panic/PTSD attack yesterday, I was so relieved to find it, and remember that this is "normal" for people in our background.   Hi everyone. We're still here.  Even PTSD can't get us down.   

[Surnia]

It's been several years since I started this workshop, but after a major panic/PTSD attack yesterday, I was so relieved to find it, and remember that this is "normal" for people in our background. 

Wow, good your could remember your own work here. 

[pessim-optimist]

It's been several years since I started this workshop, but after a major panic/PTSD attack yesterday, I was so relieved to find it, and remember that this is "normal" for people in our background.   Hi everyone. We're still here.  Even PTSD can't get us down.   

Right? Thank you for sharing this - I used to get discouraged in the past. Now I look at it as: ok, I am recovering, I am getting better, I have more peace in my heart. That does not mean I will be perfectly without troubles, but they will diminish over time. Did you notice that? That perfectionism/high expectations can creep up on us and bring us down, if we let it.

[jmanvo2015]

Hello,

I'm new today to bpdfamily and found this board, but it said that nobody has posted here in 90 days, so I'm not sure if my comments will fall into the cyberspace black hole.

I have a particularly challenging background to overcome.  I'm 45.  My mother is a BPD and I have two fathers and they're both NPDs.  The first, my biological father, gave me up for adoption to the second, my stepfather, when I was 10.  I re-established a relationship with my birth father about five years ago, after I had cancer, because I hoped it would provide some closure and help me heal.  It's been a series of delights and disappointments, but I've maintained contact and civility, though not the closeness or affection I'd hoped for.

Unfortunately, I've never been married.  I'm a straight female and my first real experience with love when I was 21 ended badly when I found out the man I fell in love with, who was physically abusive, was also secretly married.  Since that time, I haven't been able to meet a man that is not a narcissist or emotional abuser.  So, I've just shied away entirely from relationships. I wondered if I was gay, but have never had an attraction to women.  I fear I'm just completely shut down and incapable of finding love. This has been compounded by a tremendous weight gain after the cancer.  I'm attractive, but now the size of a football player, which most men don't find appealing in the least.  Or, I find men that make it clear they'll sleep with me, but not anything else, which just compounds my already deep-rooted feelings of shame and self-hatred.  I have a very difficult time setting boundaries.  I recently went on a blind date and allowed the man to talk about himself for almost 2 hours straight only to find out afterwards that he had no interest in me at all.  I think a more confident women would've bolted after 30 minutes with this narcissistic guy, but I was willing to give him a chance because I'm so very lonely.

Over the years, I've tried therapy, but none of the therapists I saw ever seemed to pinpoint what was really going on with me, or how I could overcome my challenges. In fact, it's just been the past few days that bells have been ringing and I'm seeing things clearly for the very first time.  I found some YouTube videos from a therapist, Ross Rosenberg, about how codependents always end up with NPDs or BPDs and from there did searches that led me here.  It's very clear that I've suffered a great deal of trauma by having a BPD mother who was emotionally and verbally abusive, not as much physically.

I have many codependent characteristics and some BPD ones, too. that have combined to make it very tough for me to get my needs met in any kind of relationship - romantic, friendship, family or work. I'm almost always disappointed in people and this year those disappointments have piled up tremendously.  So, I've just become sort of a loner.  Though I've definitely had my share of disruptions and failures, I'm generally well-liked and well-esteemed in my career and where I live.  However, since the cancer, I've very intentionally not let anyone too close to me because I realize that my maladaptive behaviors have caused so many problems for me that I don't want to become enmeshed in more failed and unfulfilled relationships.  Plus, I'm deeply ashamed about my weight and feel very uncomfortable and self-conscious in social settings.

So, I know what's wrong.  I just don't know how to move towards what's right.  I am trying to find a good therapist.  In the past, I'd just go with the first person I researched who saw me.  This time, though, I've been interviewing and spending time with some different ones, but none have clicked yet.  I really want to be sure it will be a person who helps me move beyond where I am, rather than sitting in his/her office for 2-3 years rehashing my traumatic childhood, but then going out into the real world and repeating all the same mistakes.

I don't really know what else to say.  I'm here hoping to dialogue with other people who, behind the veil of anonymity, can help me learn more about myself, grow and heal.  If that's not possible, then I'm here simply to share my story with the hopes that doing so - whether or not anyone responds - will help me heal.

[busybee1116]

jmanvo--it sounds like you're in the right place! Have you been in therapy since your cancer diagnosis and lightbulb insights about your FOO? It sounds like therapy didn't click for you before, but maybe it will now given the new information.

[jmanvo2015]

Hi busybee1116 - yes on the therapy and things are definitely clicking in ways they never have before.  While I feel so damaged, ashamed and lonely, I also feel hopeful that some of the things I'm doing now might result in real positive changes in my life.  I'm getting a great deal of support in 12 step programs for adult children and food addicts.  The most positive outcome of my finding this board, learning about BPD/NPD and getting into "recovery" is that I find myself reacting less and less to my parents behaviors and holding on more tightly to who I am and what I know to be true.  I am, finally, after many years, beginning to develop self-esteem and self-respect and taking care of myself. 

[tryintogetby]

That reminds me, when I was in college I had a few horrible moments where I very clearly needed help, support, understanding. I was cracking under the pressure of a lot of stuff, including serious depression (stemming from my childhood with them). Anyway, I called them, crying, asking for help. Telling them I needed help. I was nearly hysterical. They didn't hear me. They started talking about something else. Once - I will never forget - my mother started talking about David Letterman. I was in tears, had just asked for help, said that I needed to drop out of school for a while so I could get some psychological help, get my head on straight, and she started laughing about the Letterman show!

When my brother tried to kill himself during his senior year in high school, they sent him to a psych ward and when he got out, they sent him to me at college. They knew I was having problems there, yet they sent my brother to me so I could help him make up his late homework and term papers so he could graduate. They never ever spoke about what had happened. My mom just raged about my brother's teacher who'd found him.

I could go on and on... .How could I have ever actually thought any of this stuff was normal - or not so bad?

Tine2, I know it's been YEARS since we've talked, but I came back to this thread for a different reason.(A NPD is falsely claiming his wife has BPD. It's a long story... .anyway!)  As I was reading through, I saw this, and wanted to let you know that the same thing happened to me.  I called my NPD dad when I was about to lose a baby, and he started talking about work problems.  I did end up losing that baby.  It was about a year after this thread started.  

I really hope you're doing well---you were such a beautiful light to everyone here, even when you thought you were having a dark time. <3

Lots of Love,

TTGB