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Author Topic: I was always trying to control her (she says), help me understand  (Read 1322 times)
JohnLove
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« Reply #30 on: October 03, 2015, 05:02:04 PM »

My partner with BPD's home is very untidy. 4 of her children (1 a young adult) are VERY messy with leaving stuff lying around everywhere. Sometimes in the younger children's bedrooms you can't see the floor. There is always something getting lost, broken, or damaged.

So when her children come to my place to visit or stay over I get them to put things away if they are playing a game or encourage them to pick up after themselves after eating or whatever.

I don't discipline her children but I do intervene in their arguments and makes sure no one hurts each other. I only have 2 simple (broad) rules in my home and this has been explained to everyone, and repeated when necessary.

1: No one is allowed to hurt another and 2: no one is allowed to damage property.

So if they make a mess or fail to pick up or clean up, I directly encourage them to make amends, often in the hope that these healthy, desirable behaviours will be picked up and be carried over to my partners home where there is a real problem.

But often when I do this I am "challenged" by my partner... .especially if it is not perfectly clear which one (of her three) children has made the mess or failed to pick up after themselves. I ask the closest child that maybe they would like to pick it up?... .and I am met with resistance from both the child and my partner when in the absence of accountability I try to encourage teamwork. I have explained when all 3 (4 if you include my partner) want to deny a clear fact of the mess that responsibility then falls to everyone (usually the closest person or sometimes all of them) to make things right again by cleaning it up.

I am usually met with denial by most of the children and I am met by arguments or distorted perspectives on how this should proceed by my partner. This issue has been improving at a snail's pace. I will add that in her own home she cannot get the children to do anything and that responsibility will fall to her or her adult daughter and often before they can complete the task the younger children are making further mess so nothing is accomplished. It is a perpetual cycle.

There was a specific incident recently which I may relate which made me state "I know now why your home is in such a mess and it isn't the children's fault". The blame game is a biggie for her. I'm not sure stating the obvious is helpful but after working on this for so long it was self evident and overdue anyway.

My partner has also said she has more rules in my home to abide by than my own children do.

I understand how she might feel that way as I have told her not to dysregulate at my children. That is a boundary for me but also falls under rule No.1 as it never ends well for my children, my partner, or me for that matter.

When trying to assist her or her children with healthier behaviours or habits especially around personal responsibility or accountability I am "controlling". They can wreck their home, but my home is now theirs too and I now have a boundary around this after it was treated exactly like theirs a number of times and was not addressed and I was expected to clean it up.

I don't know it all, but she struggles with these things, complains to me about it, becomes extremely stressed over it, quite obviously needs some kind of assistance with it as it keeps recurring and I try to help her overcome, address, or resolve it... .and then I become the "problem".  

I am going to attempt the strategy outlined above the next time the opportunity presents itself... .and if I see a flock of cuckoo's rapidly approaching then at least I will have a clearer understanding of what is actually happening... .ie, the truth.

That movie reference gave me a chuckle... .but sometimes I feel I am the only sane one and that's not funny. I'm outnumbered.  
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Stolen
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« Reply #31 on: October 03, 2015, 05:56:11 PM »

NotWendy,  you are absolutely correct in that the trigger is some flashback to  the evil M of xW.  That relationship, that I thought we were making progress with, seems to underlay so much.  xW seemed totally unable (or unwilling) to discipline the children in anyway.  The word "no" was rarely, if ever, uttered. From early on, xW would plead (yes - plead) with the kids to go to sleep, to get out of bed, to clean their rooms etc.  Would "plead" with them, and accept their refusal in stride.  I would chime in with, "stop asking and tell them what to do" and the storm clouds would gather. (JohnLove - you sitch sounds like it may be in the same ballpark).  xW would see my (gentle) discipline as her Mother's vicious rage, and would recoil to "protect" the kids from her "mother's" dysphoric rage.

One time xW and D were with friends - D (little at the time) played with and broke xW's $300 designer sunglasses.  When zero response, friend asked "aren't you going to punish her?"  xW "No, I will never punish or yell at my children, because I was always screamed at as a child".  The clearest explanation of what drove and triggered her, and a different, but perfect example of black/white thinking.  "I was abused, so I will never abuse my children" - that could be healthy, but when "never abuse" is translated as never saying no, never telling the kids to do something, never enforcing boundaries and consequences, then that is not healthy. 

Sometimes constantly running for Mother of the Year is not what is best for the kids.  And it gives the kids a feeling of entitlement that is very difficult for the other parent to deal with.  JohnLove - your partner aligning with her kids in the way you describe is exactly what happened to me.  A clear line was drawn between them and "him" (me).  Once you become "him", its over. 

Maybe after some more wine I'll tell you the laundry story... .  classic.

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Notwendy
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« Reply #32 on: October 03, 2015, 05:59:36 PM »

I think it would make sense for your partner to have difficulty with raising children. That is a relationship and relationships are difficult.

You can maintain your boundaries of "my house my rules". All kids can test the limits, and it isn't unusual for kids in a blended family to pull the " you are not my parent " rule. Don't even go there- it could be anyone's kids at your house. "My house, my rule" for everyone.

Don't let them push you out of this boundary. They know how to work that one as it seems to work for them at home- so they will try it. But you are doing them a great favor with your house rules as you are modeling being a parent with boundaries.

Sometimes I think the things said " I have more rules than you do" are to protect self esteem. Surely she feels bad on some level that her home is a mess and feels out of control. I imagine she is sensitive about that. If she has them all the time, then it isn't easy to be a mom by herself 14/7 even without BPD.

The lessons on this board are good with dealing with accusations that sound crazy.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #33 on: October 03, 2015, 06:05:29 PM »

Stolen, I can relate to your xW in that having mom with BPD, I didn't want to pass on that experience with them. It was hard to say no but I knew it was important to have boundaries with them.

My mother was the opposite- and very OCD about keeping the house neat. If I left a toy out, she'd hide it or throw it out to punish me. Her home was spotless, but she didn't clean it- she had household help.

My home is on the clean, but not neat side. I have to admit that I was a bit slack on making the kids keep it up, but they are older now and know how to clean, take care of their own laundry and such.

Our parents did influence us, and so my erring on messy is probably a reaction to that. But since I am the one who basically takes care of all that in the house, this time, it's my house, my rules.  Smiling (click to insert in post)
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TooRational
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« Reply #34 on: October 04, 2015, 08:29:17 AM »

Something new came up in my relationship (W flip flopped again about staying or leaving) but I'd prefer to keep this thread on topic so I started a new one:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=284022

Of course feel free to keep discussing here about control issues, great discussions, thanks everyone.
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Gonzalo
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« Reply #35 on: October 04, 2015, 10:25:41 AM »

Some of these seem like the pwBPD being overly sensitive to some kind of advice or rule, and are things that someone could work on delivery or letting her make her own mistakes. My ex- went way further on accusations of being controlling over things that were not even plausibly control attempts.

For example, early on in our relationship we talked about her going on vacation with me and my family, and I was really excited about it. Stuff came up for her at work and it looked like she wasn't going to be able to get time off. So I made a point to tell her "I want you to know that I'm fine with whatever works out for your schedule. I'll be mildly disappointed if you can't come but I'm not going to be sad or mad about it. Just do whatever works for you and I'll be fine with it." She flew into a rage at me for being controlling and domineering, she took me saying "I'm fine with it, do what you want and it will be cool" as me telling her that she needed my permission to not go on the trip.

Another time we had talked about going for a walk to a nearby restaurant and having a dinner together, and she really liked the idea. A few weeks later on a rainy Sunday I mentioned that while today wouldn't work, I did want to do out nice like walk and dinner sometime. She said that she didn't want to and got kind of quiet. I asked her if she just didn't want to do it today, or if she didn't like the idea, and what she didn't like. She raged at me for not respecting her right to make a decision and for trying to make her change her mind. Of course this is a catch-22 - if I didn't ask and brought up the idea of the walk again on another day, she would rage at me for trying to make her do something she already told me she didn't want to do. If I just dropped the idea entirely and she actually wasn't opposed to it or changed her mind again, then she would rage at me for promising to do a fun thing then taking it away from her.

In some cases, you can take a different approach in a productive way and get better results, but in my case I was using good, respectful communication and not trying to force her to do anything (and the therapist who was seeing both of us agrees) and it still blew up. One of the things I realized after leaving is that, even if there was a way to dance around the topics and somehow make those conversations not blow up, I didn't want a relationship where I have to be so absurdly overcautious in conversation. If I can't tell my partner 'do what you want, I'm fine with whatever you decide'' or ask her questions about what she likes and doesn't like so I can plan fun activities for the two of us, I don't want to be in a relationship with that person, I don't think it's healthy in general and it's certainly not healthy for me.
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JohnLove
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« Reply #36 on: October 04, 2015, 05:22:56 PM »

Thanks for your response Notwendy.

You can maintain your boundaries of "my house my rules". All kids can test the limits, and it isn't unusual for kids in a blended family to pull the " you are not my parent " rule. Don't even go there- it could be anyone's kids at your house. "My house, my rule" for everyone.

The "funny" part is that her kids have NEVER in 3 years pulled the old "you're not my Dad" trick. Not once. I haven't really had to discipline them either. I'm a bit careful about that. I just try to keep order if they get out of hand. The most I've done is make them sit in an outside chair a few times. They accept this as they know and I know they did something to deserve that treatment.

Don't let them push you out of this boundary. They know how to work that one as it seems to work for them at home- so they will try it. But you are doing them a great favor with your house rules as you are modeling being a parent with boundaries.

I did march 2 of them home once when I was working from home and the two of them that were here would repeatedly not obey direct instructions not to jump on the furniture. The real problem was that I was probably unable to give them the attention they needed/wanted and they made some poor choices.

Thanks for saying I am doing a great favour. I didn't realise I needed that validation until you expressed that... .and that's a little bit sad.

Sometimes I think the things said " I have more rules than you do" are to protect self esteem. Surely she feels bad on some level that her home is a mess and feels out of control. I imagine she is sensitive about that. If she has them all the time, then it isn't easy to be a mom by herself 14/7 even without BPD.

Possibly true. And she feels real bad that her home is a mess and she is seemingly powerless to correct it. She doesn't have more rules, but she is the only one that dysregulates at the children. That led to our very unexpected and very sharp breakup last year. I would've thought she would have learnt from that experience (especially as she ended up in a psychatrict facility about 8 weeks after NC), but apparently I have read they don't learn from their mistakes and I know she is making attempts to not repeat that behaviour but it seems her choice is to avoid my children completely.

I know it's real hard to be a single parent but her and her children have my physical and emotional support... .only she undermines it. She has a young adult daughter that provides (very poor care and even abuse IMO) who provides care when she is at work. She hangs with me at my home when she needs some peace. All the children now go to school from this year. She had social assistance workers coming in to the home for most of this year. How much support does a Mum need?... .because nothing ever seems to be enough. A BPD mantra?

To bring this response back on topic, I now feel after reflecting on things that I am being emasculated as a man by her and anyone over 10 years old in her family in the name of me being "controlling"... .give me a break.
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TooRational
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« Reply #37 on: October 04, 2015, 06:41:41 PM »

Gonzalo, thanks for sharing your story. I don't think that my W is that sensitive to her feeling controlled. Or at least she doesn't blow up like your partner did. It's more an accumulation of her feeling controlled and she uses that as a reason for wanting to leave, she can't take it anymore.

We had our best friends over for diner last night (they were there to act as mediator about the details of our separation) and today my friend made me realize how I had a controlling behavior last night. He said that as I admitted, I like to do lots of research about everything on the internet. My wife is annoyed by that and he explained why. I'll give an example. We actually had a debate last night between the four of us about what needed to be renovated on the house before selling. It was the 3 of them against me. They basically were saying that the house was fine as it is and I was saying that the market is rough right now and houses need to be in tip top shape to sell fast, otherwise they'll sit on the market a long time and we'll be forced to heavily reduce the price. I mentioned that I follow the housing market closely and that I've read lots of articles about that kind of stuff. Eventually I won my point and we agreed on a set of fairly minor renovations that needed to be done.

Ok, so how is that controlling? Well, whenever I enter a debate with my W, I typically have strong rational arguments because I have done research about the topic. It's making my W feel inferior and and also that she has no say in the matter because she can't possibly match the level of research that I do. So I discount her opinion in a way. She wants to be able to make decisions her own way, even if that means making bad ones without research, because that's her way of doing things. My research is threatening to her and controlling. I realize that now.

This is exactly what her parents did, too. They never considered her opinion on things. Her dad was very knowledgeable (Ph.D., read about 3000 books in his lifetime, etc) and I can see now how I'm sorta acting the same way, probably too often.

My friend suggested a different approach. He says do your research, but instead of coming with the "final" and definitive solution, reduce it down to 3 different options, then let her choose. For example, we want to move in the Spring and so we'd like to choose a location with a good school for the kids. Hence some research about schools is inevitable. So, I could reduce the options down to 3 very good schools, and let her choose, or choose together. As long as there is still room for her opinion. I think it's a very good advice.
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thisagain
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« Reply #38 on: October 04, 2015, 06:54:09 PM »

My pwBPD often manipulated situations to make it look like I was controlling. Feelings are facts for pwBPD, and mine liked to manipulate situations and bait me so that the facts appear to reinforce her fears (in this case the fear of engulfment).

So she would tell me her coworker was hitting on her, her coworker looks exactly like the first woman she ever fell for, and then ask if it's okay if she has a one-on-one coffee date with this coworker   I'd say that would make me uncomfortable, and then she flips out at me for being controlling and not letting her have friends. She eventually decided the coworker was a lazy, trashy, stupid b****, but still periodically raged at me over it until the final discard. I was nothing but supportive of her actual friendships, but she still would set up this kind of situation ever so often (when her fear of engulfment was getting too much for her) and then rage and say I was controlling and wouldn't let her have friends.

I did find some grain of truth to the accusations, at times when I would try to intervene when I saw her setting herself up for failure or drama in some other area of her life. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned "letting her make her own mistakes." It's hard to do that when she's using her mistakes as an excuse to abuse you. My ex consistently ruined everything good in her life (family, friendships, jobs, school) and then used the resulting emotional crisis as an excuse to rage at me over nothing, give me the silent treatment, and otherwise abuse and neglect me. It was always that she couldn't be intimate with me because she's angry at her family, she can't even talk to me because she had such a hard day at work, etc.

So there was a time when I would try to give her advice about dealing with her family or boss - usually point out her black-and-white thinking and suggest a more balanced approach. Or she would be freaking out thinking she had some fatal medical condition, and I would try to head off the dysregulation (over doctors not listening to her and all) by pointing out the real facts that showed she did not have that condition. It was well-meaning and nowhere near actually controlling, but she would still react to it very badly.

I was much happier once I got off the rollercoaster, and realized that no matter how many crises I tried to save her from, there was always going to be another crisis for her and another excuse for her to treat me like crap. I'm planning to explore with therapy whether this was a situational thing or part of a broader pattern of codependency... .I've never been accused of or felt like I might be controlling in any other relationship or situation, so I suspect that it was just one of the many ways I desperately tried to ease the pain of being in a relationship with this person.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #39 on: October 05, 2015, 05:43:22 AM »

For John Love- I think it is tough to feel like you do something positive for the kids and she seems to undermine it. The only thing I can think of about this, is to do your part of it anyway as it is still an example for the kids. My mother has BPD and the way things were things in our home were different from other homes- friends and family members. Still, the parents in the other homes were able to be role models for me. Just even little things like my aunt taking me shopping, baking cookies with a friend's mom- had a big impact on me. All you can do is your part, but it may make a difference overall.

ForTooRational- I think for the idea of controlling, it may help to get to the reason for it. I think, underlying it all, is fear or anxiety. My do we walk on eggshells around volatile people. With the exception of potential physical harm, there is probably not much to fear. I know that as a child, we feared my mothers outburts and without thinking about it, I brought that fear into my marriage. My H has a short fuse, but he isn't dangerous. While fixing the fridge, he was cussing and ranting, even if it only took a few minutes to do it. This makes things unpleasant, but I would have WOE around it, not asked him, gotten someone else to fix it, to manage his anger- but underlying that would have been fear.

For the moving project- another option is to do your research, come up with choices and ask her to do her own research and come up with choices. She may not do it, but you gave her the option. Then you both can discuss the choices you both came up with. Giving someone a pre-selected choice is not fully treating them like an adult. It reminds me a bit of how we give choices to young children- we let them choose between a peanut butter sandwich or a cheese sandwich ( knowing we have pre-screened the choice) because if they were left to make any sandwich, they'd choose a candy sandwich. By pre-selecting your wife's choices, you are making the assumption that she can not adequately research and choose on her own. You may not like what she chooses, but at least she has the choice.

I can relate to this somehow, as both sides can be controlling. I was enthusiastic about decorating the house but my H would have to see every paint chip and ask a million questions about every decision I made. It was not about the budget- as that would make sense, but I am frugal and price conscious. He'd veto colors, or say things like "you can't have this kind of wallpaper". I have friends who's husbands would step out of this- within budget the wives could pick what they wanted. I would envy them for being able to pick unusual colors- that turned out to look great, but even if their husbands didn't like them, they could appreciate that their wives were happy with it.

This was the part that was missing for me- the house was our home, and I should consider him, but if I had to run everything by him to me micromanaged then, there was little of my own creativity in it. I basically lost interest after spending a lot of time picking out paint chips and having him veto them- many times over along with rants over wallpaper all which led to it being more difficult than I wanted to deal with. Now, somethings are important to be done with research and detail- I would not start a renovation project without his input, but, painting a wall isn't a major decision that can not be reversed. It's easier to fix an ugly wall than a relationship.

But underneath forms of control, IMHO, is fear and anxiety, and getting to the emotions behind the need to control can be helpful.
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TooRational
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« Reply #40 on: October 05, 2015, 08:00:03 AM »

Notwendy, to be clear, when you talk about fear and anxiety, do you mean on my part or her part?

I understand that ideally we should not walk on egg shells because we fear the outbursts. In our case, she rarely has outbursts with me (I guess I walk on egg shells too much maybe?), it's mostly with the kids. With me, the problem the way I see it, is that by constantly dismissing her opinion, she feels like an idiot, has low self-esteem and feels controlled. I realize that now and I want to change my behavior.

You're right about the false choice of offering a few selected options. We do that with our kids too. Your approach of offering her to do her own research (even if she doesn't) is indeed better.

I probably also need to let her make more impulsive decisions about stuff that's less important, without intervening with my rational research. In fact, she wants me to be impulsive sometimes, she craves that. She would love for us to go on a trip somewhere on a whim, with little planning (ideally with me surprising her). That's hard to do with kids and that's not like me at all to do that kind of stuff (hence the TooRational name) but I'm willing to try my best to make it happen.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #41 on: October 05, 2015, 01:47:06 PM »

Anxiety is on both sides of the coin as is the tendency to control. It may be there in different degrees. Some people are not in tune with it.

I guess one question to ask is what concerns you if she makes a mistake. First of all, she may not, and also, how much does it matter?

On things that matter you might want to have input. Its funny, but I always let my H pick out the cars. He's all about cars, and I'm happy with most anything. However, the last time I needed to replace my car, he just started ranting at me " I'm sick and tired of picking out cars for you, go get your own damn car".  So it was really strange that he just gave up something he usually wanted control over.

So, I went out and got a darn good car for a really good price and that was that.

It's also possible she might choose something better than you would have.
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TooRational
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« Reply #42 on: October 06, 2015, 09:17:21 PM »

Yes, I need to let her make more choice without trying to convince her, that's for sure.

I have yet one more story to share. Last night my W absolutely lost her temper in front of the kids. She couldn't hear the other person on the phone and it was an important call. Out of anger, she threw the phone on the floor very violently in front of the kids. She somehow blamed it on me, saying that it was a crappy corded phone (it's actually a good quality one) and that she always wanted a cordless phone. I had always insisted on wired because of concerns about RF radiation. I'm not a freak about it but if I can minimize the risks, I'd rather do it. So even though corded phones have better quality than cordless, she's blaming it on me.

My T suggested a technique to me to try to make her realize the impact that kind of behavior has on the kids (again, my main concern). She told me to tell her "Would you tolerate this kind of behavior from our kids?" Her theory was that this was supposed to cause a kind of introspection and make her realize her mistake on her own. It's supposedly a softer way of bringing it up, without direct criticism.

So, do you want to know her reaction? She said "F*** You. How dare you treat me like a child! I'm not a child!". She was extremely pissed. Granted, we had this discussion texting on the phone, which was a mistake. But still, that particular technique was an utter failure. She rarely used such strong words on me. My W is extremely sensitive to criticism, it's almost impossible to bring anything up. But I had to do it, for the kids. My T says that I have a responsibility towards my children to offer them a secure environment, hence I cannot just let her outbursts go by without doing anything. But I find it impossible to do anything about it.

So, I apologized and went back to walking on eggshells... .I did mention that I didn't appreciate her using such strong words on me, but to no effect. No excuses.


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« Reply #43 on: October 06, 2015, 11:45:32 PM »

Another thing that I keep forgetting to mention is that she's currently depressed, after stopping her mess. So she feels that she needs help right now but instead I criticize her. She needs help but I'm not being supportive, or so she says.
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« Reply #44 on: October 07, 2015, 05:46:07 AM »

I had always insisted on wired because of concerns about RF radiation. I'm not a freak about it but if I can minimize the risks, I'd rather do it. So even though corded phones have better quality than cordless, she's blaming it on me.

So, do you want to know her reaction? She said "F*** You. How dare you treat me like a child! I'm not a child!". She was extremely pissed. Granted, we had this discussion texting on the phone, which was a mistake. But still, that particular technique was an utter failure. She rarely used such strong words on me. My W is extremely sensitive to criticism, it's almost impossible to bring anything up. But I had to do it, for the kids. My T says that I have a responsibility towards my children to offer them a secure environment, hence I cannot just let her outbursts go by without doing anything. But I find it impossible to do anything about it.

So, I apologized and went back to walking on eggshells... .I did mention that I didn't appreciate her using such strong words on me, but to no effect. No excuses.

TooRational, I am a electronics technician and health nut. I am particularly concerned about radiation from all wireless products. The radiation from cordless phones is almost inconsequential especially compared to mobiles. In the context of the struggles with your wife I would leave this one alone.

I am concerned by your T's suggestion. I am concerned he may have no real working knowledge or experience with pwBPD. I am not surprised by your wife's reaction. I can see she felt clearly invalidated. pwBPD don't view the world as you or I would. They can be very irrational. They can pick and chose the eyes out of your statements. This particular phenomena is called cognitive distortions. That is all she heard. You comparing her like a child, and honestly the truth (sometimes) hurts. The entire problem is her reaction was that of a child having a tantrum. Did the fact escape you that it had neither a learned approach or a mature adult statement.

My advice is to bring the focus on to the children, and avoid criticising your partner... .at least for the time being. When she returns to an emotional baseline or even become melancholy that may be the time to have a conversation about protecting the children, from BOTH of you, at ALL costs. You may have success there. You may reach her. You can bring up this conversation or agreement in times of severe stress or dysregulation and she may just check herself. I hope so. For all your sakes.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Strong feelings illicit, strong words. I see your point, but then I don't have BPD. Be careful not to invalidate. I have to keep reading the tools here because these are not always easy to learn or implement.

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JohnLove
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« Reply #45 on: October 07, 2015, 05:54:37 AM »

Another thing that I keep forgetting to mention is that she's currently depressed, after stopping her mess. So she feels that she needs help right now but instead I criticize her. She needs help but I'm not being supportive, or so she says.

Depression is often associated with BPD and it often only makes things worse... .as does going off medication. Often there is a spike in symptoms worsening before returning to the before medication state. This is why it is recommended to do this under medical guidance, usually over time with reduced dosage.

Women needing help or feeling that theyre not getting what they need in a relationship BPD or not is a biggie. Suffering from BPD is only going to exacerbate this.  :'(

If you're wife says that, I would tend to believe her. You want to be supportive without enabling her bad behaviour, I see that... .but you have to be SO careful with the invalidation.

My advice is to try to really connect with her on some level and proceed gently. Whether it is going out or for a walk somewhere peaceful. You may have to wait until shes receptive to this, or surprise her. Build a repoire and try to keep it going... .but I don't think it's ever going to be easy.

All the best. 
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« Reply #46 on: October 07, 2015, 09:42:07 AM »

Thanks for the advice JohnLove. Yeah, doesn't look like my T has a good grasp of BPD. I have seen her 3 times so far and I can't say that she's been very helpful. I mean, it always feels good to talk to someone but I'm looking for something more helpful. I'll still give her one last chance since I have invested time with her telling my story but I hope it gets better.

I'll read more on how not to invalidate her, be more supportive, less critical, take walks, etc... .I think your suggestions are excellent. Any books or online resources in particular you'd recommend?
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« Reply #47 on: October 07, 2015, 09:57:28 AM »

I have been through the cycle of idealization, devaluation, and discard a few times with my ex.  Every time I would self reflect and think about the things she said and how I could have made things better.  It was only until this past time that I realized that there was nothing I could have done to prevent things from breaking down.  I can totally relate to your example with the dog.  I too would discuss things with her that had to do with the household, kids, dog, etc.  Now these things are not life or death but they are apart of the day to day quality of life that you and her share.  So they are worth discussing.  Mostly when I would brings things up to fix or to discuss she would give off a vibe that I was bothering her.   She would be dismissive in her comments... .to the point where even though she said ok I didn't know if she got the point.  So I would press the issue.  Things would often escalate from there to the point where it feels like I'm the nag and she is easy going and carefree.  However once the issue that I was trying to bring up becomes a bigger problem then that would get blamed on me somehow.  So it would end up being a lose lose.  It doesn't sound like you were controlling... .rather just being proactive.

That is inspiring that you have gotten to that point.  I too am on that journey but not quite there yet.

I totally relate, especially bringing up an issue, it becoming a bigger problem and my getting blamed.

I am by nature careful, thoughtful and proactive. My soon to be ex absolutely despised these traits. He would immediately go to, "you think you're so smart ... .perfect" ... .ad nauseum.

I became afraid to have an opinion on anything or say what I thought/felt for a long time. A situation would go bad and it would be my fault in his eyes for not speaking up.

Counseling helped me to regain myself. Of course, the marriage went downhill from there.

I felt insane for a long time.

I am feeling like a full blown, worthy, thinking, feeling human being since he left.

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JohnLove
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« Reply #48 on: October 07, 2015, 01:00:16 PM »

Thanks for the advice JohnLove. Yeah, doesn't look like my T has a good grasp of BPD. I have seen her 3 times so far and I can't say that she's been very helpful. I mean, it always feels good to talk to someone but I'm looking for something more helpful. I'll still give her one last chance since I have invested time with her telling my story but I hope it gets better.

I'll read more on how not to invalidate her, be more supportive, less critical, take walks, etc... .I think your suggestions are excellent. Any books or online resources in particular you'd recommend?

The T you are seeing may be helpful to you, but not so much for your relationship.

And I think your openness and continued approach to making things work is excellent.

You are at my most recommended online resource already and there are book reviews and a recommended reading list here:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?board=33.0

I have read Walking on Eggshells and found it particularly helpful. The author sometimes posts on these boards. I feel it is probably going to be very relevant to what you are experiencing and due to your earlier comment. I thought it was a easy read on what is a very complex subject.

The videos on validation by Alan Fruzetti are also fairly easy to digest.

If you scroll down below the boards, you will see The Learning Centre which is a treasure trove.

Hope this helps. Smiling (click to insert in post)
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TooRational
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« Reply #49 on: October 07, 2015, 01:17:58 PM »

Thanks for the pointers! Great resources. I just purchased the e-book version "Loving Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder" which was one of the recommended books on this site. I'll look at the other resources you linked to as well. Thanks.

One of the issue I have which I'm sure is very common is, how to get my W to come to the realization that she might be BPD? Once that realization is made, there seems to be lots of great resources for self-help, but she first needs to come to that realization. Her own psychologist never once mentioned BPD to her and she hasn't seemingly done much progress since she started with her, about a month ago. I'm in a tough spot because one of the thing that's irritating to her at the moment is my tendency to do research to try to help her out. She wants to figure things out by herself, like a big girl. Me helping is seen like treating her like a child. So I'm not really in a position to help, even though I know that there is great help out there for her.
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JohnLove
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« Reply #50 on: October 07, 2015, 01:39:02 PM »

Thanks for the pointers! Great resources. I just purchased the e-book version "Loving Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder" which was one of the recommended books on this site. I'll look at the other resources you linked to as well. Thanks.

One of the issue I have which I'm sure is very common is, how to get my W to come to the realization that she might be BPD? Once that realization is made, there seems to be lots of great resources for self-help, but she first needs to come to that realization. Her own psychologist never once mentioned BPD to her and she hasn't seemingly done much progress since she started with her, about a month ago. I'm in a tough spot because one of the thing that's irritating to her at the moment is my tendency to do research to try to help her out. She wants to figure things out by herself, like a big girl. Me helping is seen like treating her like a child. So I'm not really in a position to help, even though I know that there is great help out there for her.

pwBPD can't "see" their disorder and that is somewhat frightening to them. If you try to help her or make or see her disorder it will only feel like invalidation to her. She has developed all sorts of complex dysfunctional behaviours to get to the point where she is now. She is only trying to survive. To make her question herself at this point is to make her question EVERYTHING and she will become overwhelmed. The result of any of these things is not good.

She will need to come to the realisation herself and that is never going to be easy. I'm glad she is seeing a T, and even if he suspects she has BPD, he will likely never mention it to her. He knows that would invalidate her in the least and he would lose a patient at worst, and that will render him completely unable to help. It's early days yet. My first thought was I could fix everything by just laying all the cards out with love and compassion. Unfortunately, it's just not that simple... .but being her rock in a hard place will go a long way for you both.

Be patient. Do the research for yourself and your relationship, not for her. Don't interrogate her with her T (unless she wants to talk about a session first). Let her T get on with the job. Take a step back. See what happens. At least if someone else is helping her, it will leave you out of the blame game when it is coming from a third (professional) person. Her figuring out things for herself is the only thing that will create lasting change. She is growing up. Your comment "like a big girl" is condescending. I'm fine with it, and it's probably true but I hope you don't use that tone with her.  

Your closing comment shows great self awareness. Good on you, mate.
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« Reply #51 on: October 07, 2015, 01:53:18 PM »

Yeah, you're right that my comment was condescending, I'm letting some steam out, I'm sorry. No, I don't talk to her like that. It's funny how our perception of what constitutes a "proper behavior" is so different between a pwBPD and a non. She gets away with calling me names, swearing in front of the kids, having outbursts of anger, etc. As for myself, I must walk on eggshells and be extremely careful about what I say and how I behave at all times. It's frustrating but hey, it's not like I don't have a choice. I choose to stay so I must deal with that kind of unfair expectations.

I'll put my trust in her T like you suggest. I don't really like her for some reason (she was really trying to pass a lot of blame to me when we met together with my W once) but I'll try to keep hope. I can't do much else at the moment anyway.

When reading about invalidating emotions and the effect is has on pwBPD, I really saw our 3 yo son in the description. He has extreme tantrums on a very regular basis and we're at a loss about what to do. We put him in timeout but it makes things worse. We'll try to seek help on how to handle him and maybe the techniques we learn about how to help him control his emotions can help my W too. I see lots of similarities between them.
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« Reply #52 on: October 07, 2015, 02:17:03 PM »

Staff only

Thanks everyone for participating in the discussion. The thread is now locked for reaching it's post limit. You are welcome with starting a new or similar topic of discussion.
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