I seriously need some help.

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

My wife and I got married in 2018.   She was happy it seems and appeared normal but seems quite emotional and "off" when she is.  I overlooked it thinking it's just a common female thing.   Early in our relationship, she was reading bipolar articles and said out loud "I think I have bipolar".  I told her, no way you have that.   You seem pretty normal.   I thought nothing of it.

Her history:   she was abandoned by her parents at 5 years old.   She told me in couples counseling she cried everyday for months.   She also said she was physically abused by her grandma until she fought back when a bit older.  I thought nothing if it. 

Throughout our relationship, she would say some horrible things when she got emotional.   She was very unaware of situations and always blame first, ask questions later.  I always thought it was odd.   We fought a lot so I dragged her into couples counseling.   She kept saying I was always angry etc so the therapist for a 6 month period took her side often. 

Once I shut down my anger for almost anything she did, the therapist was happy but told me that she had extreme high anxiety.   Therefore, even if I get slightly upset, she would get fiery.

I never thought she had bpd but she seem to check off many of the categories to be one.    She didn't seem like a cheater nor suicidal throughout our relationship so I didn't think she could be that much of a bpd.

Last 3 months, our counseling has been going well and we fought less and less.   We also have a 2.5 year old baby and we were trying to conceive a 2nd baby in dec 2022.

All of a sudden, I found text messages of her displaying she is having sexual relations with someone.     I kept the evidence with images but wanted to wait until our counseling session before I confront her.   My therapist agreed with this since it was the holidays.

She breaks off our marriage on new years night after spending time with her family.   She faked a stomach ache and was in bed texting this guy she just met.

I can see how addicted she is to her phone as I still live with her.  It was rough waiting for our session.   She kept blaming me for our relationship failure.  This all stopped when I revealed to her I know about the other guy.  Since then she slowed down with the mental attacks.

But she is still in this honeymoon stages with this guy and is walking around with so much confidence and attacks my manhood every now and then saying I am not that manly in our relationship. 

We have a 2.8 year old baby and I am scared dealing with this as she is so erratic.  I told her I just want her to be happy so she even openly talks about this guy around me. 


I've never seen this side of her before.  She has only been irrational when emotional.  Is it possible that she is constantly in this "remorseless, evil" state because she is now emotional most of the time because of her current honeymoon stages?  Am I being split?   Please help?  I typed so much, I may need to elaborate more in another post.

Our marriage counselor was very shocked by her affair as she and I thought things were improving.  6 months prior my therapist did recommend the book "how to not walk on eggshells".  Was she hitting that my wife is possi lying bpd?    I understand they won't diagnose.

She says she is okay with 50/50 child support but my interactions with her tells me something is fishy.  Sometimes she brings up my issues in the marriage and then says "I don't know if my baby should be around you too long"

[engiebpd]

My wife and I got married in 2018.   She was happy it seems and appeared normal but seems quite emotional and "off" when she is.  I overlooked it thinking it's just a common female thing.   Early in our relationship, she was reading bipolar articles and said out loud "I think I have bipolar".  I told her, no way you have that.   You seem pretty normal.   I thought nothing of it.

Her history:   she was abandoned by her parents at 5 years old.   She told me in couples counseling she cried everyday for months.   She also said she was physically abused by her grandma until she fought back when a bit older.  I thought nothing if it. 

Throughout our relationship, she would say some horrible things when she got emotional.   She was very unaware of situations and always blame first, ask questions later.  I always thought it was odd.   We fought a lot so I dragged her into couples counseling.   She kept saying I was always angry etc so the therapist for a 6 month period took her side often. 

Once I shut down my anger for almost anything she did, the therapist was happy but told me that she had extreme high anxiety.   Therefore, even if I get slightly upset, she would get fiery.

I never thought she had bpd but she seem to check off many of the categories to be one.    She didn't seem like a cheater nor suicidal throughout our relationship so I didn't think she could be that much of a bpd.

Last 3 months, our counseling has been going well and we fought less and less.   We also have a 2.5 year old baby and we were trying to conceive a 2nd baby in dec 2022.

All of a sudden, I found text messages of her displaying she is having sexual relations with someone.     I kept the evidence with images but wanted to wait until our counseling session before I confront her.   My therapist agreed with this since it was the holidays.

She breaks off our marriage on new years night after spending time with her family.   She faked a stomach ache and was in bed texting this guy she just met.

I can see how addicted she is to her phone as I still live with her.  It was rough waiting for our session.   She kept blaming me for our relationship failure.  This all stopped when I revealed to her I know about the other guy.  Since then she slowed down with the mental attacks.

But she is still in this honeymoon stages with this guy and is walking around with so much confidence and attacks my manhood every now and then saying I am not that manly in our relationship. 

We have a 2.8 year old baby and I am scared dealing with this as she is so erratic.  I told her I just want her to be happy so she even openly talks about this guy around me. 


I've never seen this side of her before.  She has only been irrational when emotional.  Is it possible that she is constantly in this "remorseless, evil" state because she is now emotional most of the time because of her current honeymoon stages?  Am I being split?   Please help?  I typed so much, I may need to elaborate more in another post.

Our marriage counselor was very shocked by her affair as she and I thought things were improving.  6 months prior my therapist did recommend the book "how to not walk on eggshells".  Was she hitting that my wife is possi lying bpd?    I understand they won't diagnose.

She says she is okay with 50/50 child support but my interactions with her tells me something is fishy.  Sometimes she brings up my issues in the marriage and then says "I don't know if my baby should be around you too long"

[EZEarache]

I am so sorry that you are experiencing this. You are in a safe place, and the people here will be able to point you in the right direction.

I also have a 2.5 year old with a BPD. However, we were never married. I moved out almost two years ago. This past weekend I literally was thinking to myself that my life is finally getting back on track. It took a whole lot of work, self-improvement, and learning about BPD to bring me to this level. I'm sure it feels like the walls are crumbling around you, but it WILL get better, and maybe even easier.

Am I being split?

This sounds like a real possibility given the circumstances. Besides infidelity/promiscuity what other BPD traits are you seeing?

Our marriage counselor was very shocked by her affair as she and I thought things were improving.  6 months prior my therapist did recommend the book "how to not walk on eggshells".  Was she hitting that my wife is possi lying bpd?    I understand they won't diagnose.

I definitely recommend reading Stop Walking on Egg Shells, if you haven't already. For me it completely confirmed my suspicions of BPD. Most likely your therapist did have a potential diagnosis of BPD if they suggest you read this book. My couples therapist recommended I read BIFF, which lead me to Stop Walking on Egg Shells among others. I would also recommend BIFF. It will help you manage your responses in the tumultuous environment you find yourself in. Also in this forum there are a lot of references to not JADEing https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0. This will be really useful in your communication, as well.

Also absolutely keep going to therapy. Even if it's alone. First, because you are going through a lot and a trained and experienced professional can help steer you through the difficult paths ahead. A therapist may also be able to help you with documentation if there needs to be a court case.

She says she is okay with 50/50 child support but my interactions with her tells me something is fishy.  Sometimes she brings up my issues in the marriage and then says "I don't know if my baby should be around you too long"

Document, Document, Document. Anytime she starts flying off the handle get the voice recorder on your phone running. Document all of her erratic behavior. It'll be especially useful if she sends you nasty texts to make screen captures or recordings of them.

Please stay strong for your baby. They will need you more than ever. Having young children going through a separation seems like a nightmare, now. But in the long run it will be easier, because the baby will not have many memories of an intact family. Hopefully I am premature in this statement and your therapist is able to help you piece things back together.

I recommend you take some time and try to figure out what your real goals are with this relationship/family at this point. Make a vision of what you want and then start to take actions to make this vision a reality. Maybe the first step is finding your own place. Maybe it is getting your wife back into a couple's therapy session and trying to save the relationship. If you do choose to leave, from my experience don't do it with the thought, "We need some space and this will give us time to work things out. I'll go back when we're rational again." Moving out would be a serious form of abandonment and it will be difficult for your wife to see it any other way. For me it amounted to the final nail in the coffin, even though that wasn't how I intended it.

[ForeverDad]

Early in our relationship, she was reading bipolar articles and said out loud "I think I have bipolar".

BPD and Bipolar have similar behaviors.  The difference is that Bipolar can often be addressed with meds whereas BPD requires long term therapy that is diligently applied in life and perceptions.  Yes, BPD behaviors may be moderated while drugs are taken but the real answer is intense therapy.

Last 3 months, our counseling has been going well and we fought less and less.   We also have a 2.5 year old baby and we were trying to conceive a 2nd baby in dec 2022.

Having a baby typically makes BPD (and ending a relationship) more problematic.  Definitely having another baby is to be avoided.  Repeat:  Babies don't make a dysfunctional person better.  No more babies!

All of a sudden, I found text messages of her displaying she is having sexual relations with someone... Our marriage counselor was very shocked by her affair as she and I thought things were improving.

Most people, especially historically, view infidelity as a marriage or relationship breaker.

On the other hand, while she is ecstatic over her new adult relationship, you may want to do as much as possible to take advantage if that distraction to "get your ducks in a row".  Start interviewing divorce attorneys.  Find out that the courts are like in your area.  Select an attorney with experience and strategies.

Most important, this is a time to avoid TMI - too much information.  Your discussions with attorneys and others are private, privileged and very confidential.  Sharing anything more than parenting information could either trigger her or give her ammo to sabotage you.  Oh, and forget being your normal overly-fair self.  A disordered person sure won't be "fair".

She says she is okay with 50/50 child support but my interactions with her tells me something is fishy.  Sometimes she brings up my issues in the marriage and then says "I don't know if my baby should be around you too long"

This is PD-speak for watch out for what comes next.  Do you have her 50-50 comments in writing (emails, text, etc)?  Save them!  Once separated, she will not be remotely fair or reasonable.  Most of us were perceived as evil incarnate once we separated.

[BigOof]

To focus in, what problems are you trying to solve in the short-term?

[Turkish]

You're being Split and it's hard to say if it's recoverable given she's going out. My ex did when our kids were 1 and 3. During and for the few months before she moved out, she lived a double life and openly talked about her beau, zero empathy. I was left at home with our kids while she was out clubbing and then into her r/s.

Stop sex and trying to conceive. Think about you and your current child. We will help and support you.

[Outdorenthusiast]

[/b]

…I never thought she had bpd but she seem to check off many of the categories to be one.    She didn't seem like a cheater nor suicidal throughout our relationship so I didn't think she could be that much of a bpd.

…All of a sudden, I found text messages of her displaying she is having sexual relations with someone.     I kept the evidence with images but wanted to wait until our counseling session before I confront her.   My therapist agreed with this since it was the holidays.

I can see how addicted she is to her phone as I still live with her.  It was rough waiting for our session.   She kept blaming me for our relationship failure.  This all stopped when I revealed to her I know about the other guy.  Since then she slowed down with the mental attacks.

But she is still in this honeymoon stages with this guy and is walking around with so much confidence and attacks my manhood every now and then saying I am not that manly in our relationship. 

… Is it possible that she is constantly in this "remorseless, evil" state because she is now emotional most of the time because of her current honeymoon stages?  Am I being split?   Please help?  I typed so much, I may need to elaborate more in another post.

… 6 months prior my therapist did recommend the book "how to not walk on eggshells".  Was she hitting that my wife is possi lying bpd?    I understand they won't diagnose.

She says she is okay with 50/50 child support but my interactions with her tells me something is fishy.  Sometimes she brings up my issues in the marriage and then says "I don't know if my baby should be around you too long"

Welcome to the group! 

I am sorry to hear about this and also all the feelings, uncertainty, and doubt flowing through your head.  This is totally understandable and normal.  Keep talking with your T, friends/family, and us.  That emotional support network will be critical for you as you navigate this rabbit hole.

Yes, you are being split.  Read about limerance also, it is highly addictive and she is very likely BPD if your therapist is recommending books like that.  As you learn about BPD - she has found a new “favorite person” to focus on, and you will hear lots of disparaging remarks and be the brunt of many inappropriate actions that will make no sense.  Especially in our rational brain thinking about this coming from someone who is married to us and supposed to love us.  When the limerance wears off - she may even try to recycle you.  Be prepared.

Document, Document, Document everything.  Take videos, record conversations, and journal/write down dates and events and things said or done.   She may be saying 50/50 because that is what is on her mind now but it could change to be worse the blacker you are painted.  Additionally, you may want to protect your young kids from growing up in that environment.  Some of us have teenagers, and the emotional manipulation damage sets in prior to age 12.  Do you want that for your kids?  Something to think about if asking for more than 50%, and your documentation will help.  Regardless of what you decide, the documentation and reflecting upon it will help you reflect on what you want for your life and your kids.

Talk to and secure a lawyer specialized in high conflict cases soon regardless of what you decide.  They can educate you. - Be proactive with your life.  Rational and reason will not exist with BPD.  It is raw emotion that can turn on a dime.  If you decide to file first, you can control the narrative on your terms.

Glad you found us, sorry for the circumstances.  Keep talking.

[engiebpd]

I thought it through long enough and I am improving on detaching from her.   I still have to live with her to finish off our lease and agreed in our counseling session that we will be roommates and coparent.   I said thar I am all about the baby and do not want to fight around him and I want us to be cool and possibly start our friendship and coparenting relationship for the future.

I avoid her at all costs and notice she still wants to do some things that we usually do when we were coupled.  My goal is to make sure we get our custody paperwork done so I am truly walking on eggshells.  We are trying to do it with self help court and avoid spending money.  I am considering using a mediator buy that will run us thousands.

[engiebpd]

If a "normal" woman cheated, she would normally have some empathy and be nicer correct?  Cheating and then destroying the victim mentally has to be a bpd trait right? 

Thank you all for your support

[Turkish]

If a "normal" woman cheated, she would normally have some empathy and be nicer correct?  Cheating and then destroying the victim mentally has to be a bpd trait right? 

Thank you all for your support

I doubt that, though my ex did have some empathy towards me in her twisted thinking. I took advantage of her obsession with her beau to negotiate a custody outcome. It still killed me emotionally to live with her for 4 months. Play the long game.

[engiebpd]

I also want to add that about a year ago in counseling, our therapist recommended us to a psychiatrist who began prescribing her zoloft.  This improved our relationship so much.

The expbd wife wanted me to be on something as well and my psychiatrist prescribed me sleep medication but I went to her for adhd and also ended up getting prescribed non stimulate adhd meds.    

Is zoloft used for bpders?    Is our counselor and psychiatrist knows something and are not telling me?

[engiebpd]

I doubt that, though my ex did have some empathy towards me in her twisted thinking. I took advantage of her obsession with her beau to negotiate a custody outcome. It still killed me emotionally to live with her for 4 months. Play the long game.

I'm in this exact same boat.   Trying to get the custody going and will have to finish my lease with her which will be 8 months or so.    I am detaching and trying to avoid her as much as I can without being obvious about it so she doesn't get upset.

[Turkish]

Use the tools at the top of the Bettering Board, especially SET and BIFF. My ex was so into her One True Love and a New Better Life that I stopped criticizing her  lack of wisdom. We negotiated the joint custody stipulation, finalized 5 months after she moved out. D was 1 and S had just turned 4. I filed with the court, no need to show up in court. I kept spinning it as "this protects all of us" which was true. I paid for the lawyer.

[engiebpd]

I want to get this done fast but the ex-wife wants to go cheapest route possible since we are on "full agreement" withb50/50 custody.   I have been told that there are self help mediators that are paid for by the courts- which I am trying to use but the appt wait is over a week from now and who knows how long that process will be from then on.

A family friend lawyer says i can do that but I can use an outside mediator that will cost around 4,000 assuming no conflict.   But that may expedite the process.

Some news, the exbpd wife who has been addicted to her phone for a couple weeks now comes home from work last night telling me she's going to be "single" so that she can focus on this divorce and be more "respectable".   Then she says "I'm ending it with this guy, hopefully he'll be okay". 

She wakes up this morning texting me from the other room that she wants to go on a "solo" trip now.

[kells76]

Hi engiebpd;

To answer your question:

Is zoloft used for bpders?    Is our counselor and psychiatrist knows something and are not telling me?

zoloft is used for lots and lots of different things, not solely BPD. I'd recommend against reading anything "diagnostic" into her taking zoloft. It truly doesn't say anything one way or the other about BPD or not.

Instead, like you described here

 

I said that I am all about the baby

keep your focus 110% on what's best for your child (i.e., lots of time with you). That's great that you can articulate that you want to be all about the baby.

Turkish has "been there done that" and has good feedback, especially about "striking while the iron is hot" in terms of leveraging her obsession with another relationship (or, obsession with "going solo" or "finding herself") to get the best terms for custody/parenting time.

Which relates to your comment here:

I want to get this done fast but the ex-wife wants to go cheapest route possible since we are on "full agreement" with 50/50 custody.

One idea is that you can do an "initial consultation" with a lawyer or two, for a lower cost and NOT equivalent to hiring a L/putting a L on retainer. You call them up, describe your situation, and you can either talk on the phone about it right then, or schedule a meeting (remote or in person) where you bring in your paperwork and the L can check it out and briefly give feedback on "this is how I'd do it if you hired me".

Note, this isn't you doing an initial consultation for you and your kid's mom together. This is you, doing what you want and need to do for you, because it's important to you. It doesn't matter that she doesn't want to get it done quickly -- you can take your own steps to protect your own interests (and your kid's interests). I would recommend against telling her that you're doing that. Sure, if you were still healthily together, you would share more. Now, though, as you unwind the relationship... it is OK to protect yourself and do your own priorities. It isn't "hurting her" or "unfriendly" or "uncooperative" for you to do what you need to do.

So -- you can bring in the current proposed custody and parenting time agreement, and the L you are doing the "initial consultation" with can tell you "if you were my client this would look pretty good" or "if we work together I would definitely change parts A B & C because they will come back to bite you".

I am assuming that you have an actual, specific, detailed parenting plan and custody agreement? This is absolutely critical if you suspect your kid's mom has a PD.

I'll wrap things up for now...

Thanks for keeping us posted on developments --

kells76

[Turkish]

My ex wanted to go "East Side" (joke about our borderline ghetto) and not go to court. "You can just pay me X/month" a reasonable amount. No. Way.

I hired a lawyer, and spun it as I said earlier. That was true. It was about $1800 in 2014, the  attorney wrote a boiler plate stipulation for joint custody and CS which closely matched what I calculated on the California state website. After some back and forth my ex agreed. She was served by mail which avoided possible humiliation of a process server (which even could have been one of her brothers, less humiliating). She eventually had to show up at the lawyer's office to sign final documents, but KID GLOVES.

My ex was relieved that she didn't need to show up in court, I think to save face as she tried to keep that she was leaving me for her young college football jock stud   secret even from her friends who encouraged Eat, Pray, Love. I had a journal which I would have submitted as evidence... my ex loved court, too (TPOs against her prior bf and her husband's brother). The core emotional response of a pwBPD is to avoid shame, so I did my part.

As kells76 said, strike while the iron is hot!  As in my case, there isn't punishment here, and deserving's got nothing to do with it. It's to protect all of you and to preserve the family. You'll still be a family, even apart.

[engiebpd]

Thank you for your responses.   You have no idea how much healing it is to read these posts.  I can read a thick book of all your responses if it exists.

I had dinner at home with my ex-wife tonight and was able to obtain more information on her thought process.

The pattern I see in her life is that there are things she wants in life but is completely oblivious and unaware that everything comes at a cost.  Once those costs comes up, she seems to want to bail.  For example: getting married, she didn't realize the married life would be the way it is and wants out.  The way she describes it is like wanting to be single.   "I want to go out more, I want more connection, I want to hike l, skydive etc." "We don't do these things"   She doesn't realize that a long term relationship goes through phases of lower and higher disconnecting periods and less going out simply because we are getting older and we are busy trying to raise a child and make money.

The best example:  having a baby.   It comes with a lot of work and at some cost to our relationship for a short period.  I feel like she may bail out on our boy sometime in the future when I am no longer there due to the workload and life changes.   She seems to neglect the baby more and more during our separation.  She's unaware that the baby drains our energy and less time to "have fun".

I literally schedule and make pretty good amount of time for us to have fun, this was done with our conselors guidance but it's not enough.

Another example, is us getting older.    It seems like she is completely unaware that we are getting older and therefore we are not the same couple as we were in our late 20s to 30s.  She keeps making statements like "before us, I used to go out so much more,"

Everything she wants seems like shes fantasizing of being younger without a child.

She would point out a couple that are in love and that we are not anything like them.  The couples she usually points out are couples that are still in their honeymoon stages and childless.

She seems to really lean on her emotions to make decisions l. "I feel this, therefore it is that".   We are both reaching our 40s and we simply get tired going out past 10pm with a baby.  But she believes it is a problematic in our relationship.

It's as though she's going through some kind of midlife crisis but since she has zero awareness, she cannot sit and think why things are the way they are in reality.

What do you guys make out of this?   I am so glad I figured this out about her now and are making moves to separate because i will end up spending my life with her dealing with her emotions and behaviors as a result of these high emotions.  "I feel like i am in love with this guy, therefore it's my marriage is loveless"

Throughout our relationship, it seems nobody including her family nor I are able to speak any logic to her.

Isn't this really weird????  Have you guys encountered something similar to this?

I think once she realizes how difficult life is with a baby as a single mom, she may want out.

In her mind, the solution is to get with a young rich guy and all her problems will be solved....

Sorry for the lengthy post, this one was tough to convey.  Please let me know your thoughts.  Thank you.

[SinisterComplex]

Thank you for your responses.   You have no idea how much healing it is to read these posts.  I can read a thick book of all your responses if it exists.

I had dinner at home with my ex-wife tonight and was able to obtain more information on her thought process.

The pattern I see in her life is that there are things she wants in life but is completely oblivious and unaware that everything comes at a cost.  Once those costs comes up, she seems to want to bail.  For example: getting married, she didn't realize the married life would be the way it is and wants out.  The way she describes it is like wanting to be single.   "I want to go out more, I want more connection, I want to hike l, skydive etc." "We don't do these things"   She doesn't realize that a long term relationship goes through phases of lower and higher disconnecting periods and less going out simply because we are getting older and we are busy trying to raise a child and make money.

The best example:  having a baby.   It comes with a lot of work and at some cost to our relationship for a short period.  I feel like she may bail out on our boy sometime in the future when I am no longer there due to the workload and life changes.   She seems to neglect the baby more and more during our separation.  She's unaware that the baby drains our energy and less time to "have fun".

I literally schedule and make pretty good amount of time for us to have fun, this was done with our conselors guidance but it's not enough.

Another example, is us getting older.    It seems like she is completely unaware that we are getting older and therefore we are not the same couple as we were in our late 20s to 30s.  She keeps making statements like "before us, I used to go out so much more,"

Everything she wants seems like shes fantasizing of being younger without a child.

She would point out a couple that are in love and that we are not anything like them.  The couples she usually points out are couples that are still in their honeymoon stages and childless.

She seems to really lean on her emotions to make decisions l. "I feel this, therefore it is that".   We are both reaching our 40s and we simply get tired going out past 10pm with a baby.  But she believes it is a problematic in our relationship.

It's as though she's going through some kind of midlife crisis but since she has zero awareness, she cannot sit and think why things are the way they are in reality.

What do you guys make out of this?   I am so glad I figured this out about her now and are making moves to separate because i will end up spending my life with her dealing with her emotions and behaviors as a result of these high emotions.  "I feel like i am in love with this guy, therefore it's my marriage is loveless"

Throughout our relationship, it seems nobody including her family nor I are able to speak any logic to her.

Isn't this really weird????  Have you guys encountered something similar to this?

I think once she realizes how difficult life is with a baby as a single mom, she may want out.

In her mind, the solution is to get with a young rich guy and all her problems will be solved....

Sorry for the lengthy post, this one was tough to convey.  Please let me know your thoughts.  Thank you.

Engie...the only part I want to chime in on is for you to stop apologizing for lengthy posts or feel that are you sharing too much. No, you are not. It is okay. Vent away. Ask questions. Share. We are a family here. You have lot to get out and the only way you get better is by sharing. I pay attention in addition to the rest of my team as well as the rest of the community. I will jump in if there is something of substance to add, but you keep venting and stay engaged. We got you. Okay? No more worrying if you have said too much...you just let it fly and let us help you.

Cheers and best wishes!

-SC-

[ForeverDad]

Your child is leaving the toddler stage and entering the preschool stage.  She is no longer a baby, though you will always feel so.  There is every reason to seek as much parenting time with your child.  Currently she is distracted with seeking other adult relationships.  For all you know then one may fail too and she'll seek another relationship elsewhere.

What the others wrote here, that you should take advantage of her looking elsewhere and focus on strategies to benefit your child, may not be a long time window.  She may be "up" now and somewhat agreeable but likely it won't last.  You can't fix her, she would have to fix herself, generally that takes a professional such as a therapist.  So work with the cards you're dealt and stay focused on what's best for your child.

States vary on their default approaches to custody and parenting time.  Your lawyer can answer specific questions.  But most do limit father to equal time or less.  You probably have have to step forward with reasons why your child needs to be with you more and responsibilities cared for by you.

My divorce was over 15 years ago and I had no control over the temp order which defaulted to mother in charge.  Two years later we did settle on equal status as our custody evaluator wished but... I had one condition, that either I was parent for school matters or we would proceed with a trial.  She caved and that slight edge I had (which our lawyers imagined meant nothing) laid the ground work for further tweaks for the better.

You're the father, just as important as the mother.  Do not "gift away" more parenting than necessary.  Yes, in the years to come she may (emphasis on "may") relinquish some parenting to you... but don't count on it.

For example, very soon your child will reach preschool or school age.  You, as the more responsible and reasonably normal parent, ought to ensure (as I did) that you're the parent handling school responsibilities, your school in your area and you as school contact.

That may be a part of the Decision Making or Tie Breaker status you could set up in the custody aspect of any agreement so she can't obstruct you as much, if that happens in future years.

[Turkish]

My ex was 31 when she went out on me, her beau 21 and me 41. She wrote in her journals that she wasn't ready for the stable family life basically. She wanted to have fun, despite desiring babies.

I grew to resented the crap out of her (and I didn't handle our deal with it well) which she picked up on. Death spiral for the r/s. I'll own what I owned.

She's doing better as a mother now, 4 years after she divorced her boy toy whom she grew to resent... because he was a young dude who wasn't mature or stable or able to provide. A blind person could have seen that coming. I told her and she mocked me at the time, natch.

Focus on you and your child. Let her do her Eat, Pray, Love deal by herself.

[engiebpd]

Hi All,

Throughout our relationship, I find us arguing about the most ridiculous things.  I want your opinion on what could possibly be wrong with my ex-wife when she has these kinds of thoughts.  Here's an example:

I change my baby's diaper, and supposedly I lift his leg up too high.  She then gets slightly upset and says "you are lifting the baby's leg up too high!  Did you know that's how he can become gay?"

My face expression is like 'WTF'  and this is how one of our arguments usually begins

What do you guys make out of something like this?   She makes these far stretching comments often and I would have to explain away...  could there something else be wrong with her besides bpd suspicions?   Thanks

[SaltyDawg]

I change my baby's diaper, and supposedly I lift his leg up too high.  She then gets slightly upset and says "you are lifting the baby's leg up too high!  Did you know that's how he can become gay?"

My face expression is like 'WTF'  and this is how one of our arguments usually begins

What do you guys make out of something like this?   She makes these far stretching comments often and I would have to explain away...  could there something else be wrong with her besides bpd suspicions?   Thanks

Using logic to explain the bold-underlined question...

BPD is irrational.

That is an irrational statement.

She is irrational.

[Outdorenthusiast]

Hi All,

Throughout our relationship, I find us arguing about the most ridiculous things.  I want your opinion on what could possibly be wrong with my ex-wife when she has these kinds of thoughts.  Here's an example:

I change my baby's diaper, and supposedly I lift his leg up too high.  She then gets slightly upset and says "you are lifting the baby's leg up too high!  Did you know that's how he can become gay?"

My face expression is like 'WTF'  and this is how one of our arguments usually begins

What do you guys make out of something like this?   She makes these far stretching comments often and I would have to explain away...  could there something else be wrong with her besides bpd suspicions?   Thanks

In addition to Salty’s comment - BPD devalues and finds negative things to comment about the behavior of the person they care most about.  She is devaluing you.  I personally see an uptick in the quantity of these absurd “picking on” type items when she is stressed and/or has limited sleep.  The more “WTF” they are the more I know it is the BPD talking and plan my day accordingly.

[ForeverDad]

BPD is a disorder most evident the closer the relationship.  Maybe some on the fringe, a coworker or an occasional acquaintance, may notice something "off" but you as the person close and sharing a huge amount of private time will experience much more and be impacted more.

[SaltyDawg]

Agreed.

Like all mental disorders, they lash out at the ones that they love the most, or whom they feel the safest with.  It is how they function.

SD

[Turkish]

I didn't want a second child based upon what I went through with the first. I was hardly allowed to touch our baby son for months. My ex was wrapped up in her mother's Anxiety. Bathing a baby was a sacrosanct event. Any deviation and the baby would get sick or cursed.

[engiebpd]

It's unbelievable guys.   I told the ex bpd wife that no matter what happens, illl always have her back and that she is the mother of my child.    In many ways I feel bad for her.   She has revealed to me more about the guy she was seeing and it looks like he was selling her a dream.   He isn't what I feared to be which would be a ridiculously rich guy that can bankroll a custody court case against me.    I had anxiety over this and told some friends who did bring me back to reality by explaining how unlikely of a situation that would be.

She sounds wholeheartedly real about the 50/50 custody.   I just submitted a form for an informal mediation with the courts.  If I can get this done without spending money since we seem cordial so far about everything, I think I will be anxiety free.

I just want my son.   He's the best thing that came out of this tornado.   I love him so much and it sucks that he isn't going to experience a life with real parents together.   This was why I tried so hard in counseling for this marriage.  The more she talks about us, the more I realized how delusional she is.   She truly thinks that our disconnect, which may have occurred within the last 6 months due to my baby going through tantrums and I having to work more+ handle the baby.   I did overlook and took off time between us.  But this is standard in many marriages.   She doesn't seen this at all.   It blows my mind.  All I know is that if she can't handle this temporary period when we have a baby, it'll be impossible for her to move further beyond a long term marriage.   Can't imagine when we just get old and lose some more connection, or when real life problems occur.  It's truly immature thinking.

She and I are just light years apart in thinking and maturity.  I made the mistake thinking I can lead her and save her. I did save her but I brought her to a level where she thought she can do better.   And she's into a guy with 2 unmarried baby mommas and is 27 years old.   I just turned 40 and she's 37, and she keeps comparing me to him as far as "energy".   

In many ways, I can frame this as a blessing un disguise.  My boy is still only 3 years old and he may not know what is going on when we we do separate.  It would break my heart so much if he was 5+ and this happens.   

We were trying for a 2nd child all year and somehow it failed.   Maybe God didn't allow us for a reason.  My first boy came through easily.   She did blame me for a "low sperm count" as to probably why we didn't get a 2nd child. 

[engiebpd]

Our mediation custody date is coming up. Now she tells me she's pregnant.   

She believes it is very new and not with me.   The last time we had sex would be early December.   I am a little nervous by this but I believe it is likely with the new guy.   

What to do?   Help please.  Thank you

[Outdorenthusiast]

Our mediation custody date is coming up. Now she tells me she's pregnant.   

She believes it is very new and not with me.   The last time we had sex would be early December.   I am a little nervous by this but I believe it is likely with the new guy.   

What to do?   Help please.  Thank you

Oh boy engie.  Paternity test - you must make sure - it will affect everything (money, feelings etc.) for the rest of your life.  Plan for the worst and hope for the best.  Talk with your lawyer and therapist.

[engiebpd]

She's only 4 weeks pregnant based on clinic.  So it's not with me

[kells76]

OK, good to know that biologically it is not yours.

That being said, in some states, a child conceived while the wife and husband are married, is considered to be a child of that marriage -- you're the imputed father.

To make sure that you are not responsible and that the child's father is responsible for the child, you will likely need to get a paternity test, regardless of the fact that you know it isn't yours.

A brief consultation with one or two local lawyers would be time very well spent for you.

[engiebpd]

We still live in the same apartment.  Her current guy is currently not texting her due to a "family" death and needed some space.  I can tell she's a bit annoyed of it since she is pregnant with his chuld.

She is asking me to go out with her to an amusement park for the baby.    I honestly don't know what to say as this is what we didchild. when we were together.   

I am trying to live in the same unit with her as friends and coparenting partners.   I am still healing and doing things separately with the baby so he gets starts to know we are separate.   Is taking the baby and her out to the amusement park a good idea occasionally?   Is she stringing me unknowingly?  Thanks

[ForeverDad]

I am still healing and doing things separately with the baby so he gets starts to know we are separate.   Is taking the baby and her out to the amusement park a good idea occasionally?

I will reply with the baby's perspective.  Most people do not remember details from before 3 or 4 years of age, sometimes not even that far back.  So whether you take the baby together with mother to Disneyland, Disneyworld, Grand Canyon, Yosemite or any other special (and often expensive) location, the baby won't remember or care.  Going to the local park, playground or nature area is just fine and in most cases far less expensive.

I would look at my family's albums with our vacation photos when I was very little and what I remember most are the pictures themselves, looking at them and not so much the actual trips.

What the small children will remember most is the overall environment.  Was it happy and calm, did it lend a feeling of safety and attention?

[engiebpd]

Yes, I am trying to make it as peaceful as possible for the baby.   It's also another reason why I worry about hanging out with her for a long period of time.    She says things with absolutely no regard for my feelings and I just have to take it for the good of the baby

[engiebpd]

The ex wife no longer wants to use our marriage counselor anymore.   We are going to get our own separate therapist for this divorce process.    This was recommended to me by my psychiatrist.

Will it be wise for me to continue the same marriage counselor since she knows us so much?  Would it result in some kind of conflict of interest?

My ex wife who loved this therapist now hates her.   Maybe a splitting issue.  She says that she is too biased and that she should've told us sooner that this marriage wouldn't work.  She now feels like our marriage counselor has been "milking" us.

Obviously marriage counselors are to help resolve marriage issues and not say "you're not good together".   It's very weird how my ex wiffe thinks.   Thoughts on this matter?   Thank you

[SaltyDawg]

Will it be wise for me to continue the same marriage counselor since she knows us so much?  Would it result in some kind of conflict of interest?
[...]
Obviously marriage counselors are to help resolve marriage issues and not say "you're not good together".   It's very weird how my ex wife thinks.   Thoughts on this matter?

If you are comfortable with the counselor, go for it, she will have a better perspective of the situation as she has already met her.  That is assuming the counselor is also on board with it.  The counselor would be the one to determine if there was some kind of 'conflict of interest'.

I talked to my individual therapist on this very topic, she much prefers individual clients as she can do a lot more with them.  With marriage counseling, there is a high failure rate, as the two people often cannot meet in the middle with a compromise on the issue that is ailing them.  Here is why [my coach gave me this article by Laura Doyle, a NY times best seller, has some good points, which I agree with most, not all of them]:

6 Reasons Marriage Counseling is BS
By Laura Doyle | Updated: 12/16/2022
If you want to save your marriage, ..., don’t go to marriage counseling.

Eighteen years ago my marriage was in tatters. My husband and I went to counseling for years thinking there was something wrong with us, but we finally realized that the counseling was the problem. That set me on a path to discovering the principles of intimacy, which I describe in The Surrendered Wife, a New York Times best-selling book printed in 26 countries and 15 languages.

Hundreds of thousands of women have used these principles to transform their shredded marriages into intimate, passionate relationships, but too many are still stuck in ineffective marriage counseling. Here are some of the reasons that marriage counseling is a big, fat lie.

1. It starts with calling your spouse a loser
When a wife says to her husband, “We should go to counseling,” what she really means is, “You’re a loser.”

Since a key ingredient for intimacy is emotional safety, this approach puts the connection she craves further out of reach. The last time your husband criticized you, did it make you want to hug him?

A woman who doesn’t realize she just criticized her husband by suggesting marriage counseling might think his snarky response is coming out of nowhere — which proves he needs marriage counseling.

No relationship ever got happier from one person criticizing the other. What takes more courage — but always results in much greater connection — is being vulnerable by admitting you feel hurt, rejected or lonely.

2. Some marriage counselors are failures
Some marriage counselors aren’t married. Others are divorced twice or unhappily married. Is this who you want to pay for advice? Would you take fitness tips from a 350-pound personal trainer who just had bypass surgery?

If your marriage counselor doesn’t have the kind of relationship you want, she simply can’t tell you how to get it. When I think about the lousy advice that we got during our marriage counseling, I’m amazed that we survived it.

Instead of someone with an impressive diploma, consider seeking the advice of a wife with a happy, healthy, intimate relationship.

3. Any fool can complain and most do during marriage counseling
The fastest way to destroy your relationship is to focus on what’s wrong with your partner. Dwelling on his faults is the opposite of what you did when you fell in love. If you admired his ambition and now you think he works too much, guess what changed? Only the way you’re looking at him.

Couples typically argue after a marriage counseling session because focusing on each other’s faults makes you feel more resentful and hopeless.

If you want to restore your relationship, here’s a great remedy: Make a habit of giving your partner three expressions of gratitude daily. Focusing on the things you appreciate about your mate is a powerful way to remind yourself why you chose him in the first place.



4. It’s a hideout for hypocrites
Lots of us go to marriage counseling secretly believing we’re just there to be supportive while the counselor fixes the other person’s shortcomings. Marriage counselors will tell you that the only thing you have to do to change your spouse is get him to come in for a hundred sessions. But marriage counseling will never work because it focuses on someone you can’t change: Your spouse.

Trying to control someone else not only wears you out, it gives you the illusion that you’re working really hard on your relationship while the other person isn’t doing anything. It also steals energy away from improving the only person you can: Yourself.

It’s only when you accept and celebrate your spouse as the quirky individual he is that you can both relax into being yourselves — just like you did when you were dating.

5. Men are not big, hairy women
Many women believe that if their man would just share his feelings, they would finally have the connection they crave. But asking a man how he feels in counseling is like asking a woman in a bathing suit who’s eating a piece of cake how much she weighs.

Trying and failing to get a man to talk about his feelings in marriage counseling may confirm a wife’s worst fears that her husband is defective. But the real failure here is her lack of respect for the man he is — the one she picked to marry.

Chances are good that you married an imperfect man who’s perfect for you. Instead of trying to pry his feelings out of him, consider bringing respect back into the relationship by honoring your husband’s masculinity and his choices for himself. If you want more passion in your marriage, there’s no stronger aphrodisiac than respect.

6. It’s the most expensive way to try to control your spouse
Marriage counseling may seem like an important purchase, but it’s actually a tragic waste because it diverts funds from something that really would help your marriage: Self-care.

Self-care means not only getting enough rest and nourishment, it means that you make it a priority to do three pleasurable things every single day. Relationships naturally take a little energy and if you’re depleted, you give your relationship no chance to thrive. Showing up delighted instead of depleted is indispensable for a gratifying and intimate partnership.

You may have thought it was your husband’s job to make you happy, but it’s actually yours. Your husband would like to make you happy, but if he can’t he may stop trying.

Once you make yourself feel good, he sees that you are pleasable, which opens the door for him to delight you too. Men love making their women happy. “Happy wife, happy life” is not just an adage. Ask any guy.

[Turkish]

Ugh.

My ex lured me to counseling only to abandon me there to get fixed. My mother with BPD did the same thing to me when I was 12. My ex did the same thing to her later husband, the guy she left me for, a few years later.

I continued individually, spending enough $ for a decent down payment on a new car because...  her. At least that's what I felt initially. It was very helpful to me as a safe place to discuss what was going on and to provide me feedback from someone who wasn't angry at me and hurt.

After it was too late, I was accused of not paying attention to get is into couple's counseling myself... this from the woman who before we had kids tried to send me to a couple's communication class by myself.

[engiebpd]

I broke down just now.  First time since I found out about the affair - I initialized routine to detached asap from there on.

  I had a couple of beers just nowband ended up looking at some of our old pictures.   I know, probably a dumb thing to do.

The thought process that came to my head is as if I was mourning her death.   She is literally not the same person.   It's as if she doesn't remember anything we went through.  I probed her about some events when we first dated, she's all "I don't remember".

She came home just now and told me she feels like she can have chemistry with so many guys.  I tried to tell her, you can have chemistry with anyone you allow into you.   It went out the other ear.   There is truly something completely off about her.  She is a different person now.

She recently took zoloft for about a year, is it possible it rewired her brain in some way?  Or maybe the stressor of marriage and having a baby made her go off somewhere?  It's too bizarre.

[ForeverDad]

I can't respond to the question about drugs and lasting effects.  As an overview, such as an airliner 35,000 foot perspective looking down, it has often been noted that though drugs may be helpful (Bipolar has some similar behaviors but is largely chemistry based) drugs really only moderate the behaviors, BPD really needs therapy.  Medications alone typically are not enough help.

The other thing I will add is that in my own life and marriage, having a child changed my ex-spouse, big time.  As I look back, it was as if before becoming a parent I was only a husband but afterward she perceived me as a father instead.  Married for a dozen years she surely knew me well that I wasn't a bad person but once I became a father she suddenly started comparing me to her abuser stepfather.

So it's possible part of her increased "acting out" involves you or her becoming parents and then, adding to that, trying to have another baby.

[Gemsforeyes]

I’m so sorry you’re going through this, engie.  Pretty natural you cried and had a few beers last night, as long as that isn’t an issue for you.  I’m hoping you have some very close friends who can also support you in person if you need that.  This is a horrible situation for you and your precious boy.

I’m a bit confused, though.  Why does your psychiatrist think you need to go to separate counselors rather than continuing with the joint counseling you and your stbexW have been seeing?  (Aside from the fact that your W is now splitting the counselor).

It would seem that the joint counseling could be helpful in managing through coparenting while you’re stuck in the same house; but then separate counseling for you IS a good idea.  Does your place of work offer a lower cost confidential employee assistance program?

And about your W’s now disdain for and splitting your couples counselor, my guess would be those nasty feelings lie in the “shame” tied to her cheating and pregnancy dilemma???  Your counselor KNOWS about that infidelity.  Your counselor also seems to understand BPD (recommending the Eggshells book, right?).

It may be helpful for you to look through the tools for “Mindfulness” techniques for yourself.  You can also google that term for online resources.  It’s a really good way for you to keep your feet on the ground during this incredibly trying time.

What is this “solo” trip she mentioned?  Has the affair partner (AP) responded to her texts?  Sorry to ask...I know it’s difficult, and I’m only asking because she says she’s pregnant.

Your thoughts on all of this?

Warmly,
Gems

[engiebpd]

She mentioned the solo trip.  Who knows if it's her new guy wanting to go with her.   I've been working to detach as soon as I can.   I let her do her thing because I really want her to guarantee me 50/50 with my boy without spending k's on lawyers.

Some news, who knows what is true though.  She apparently had a miscarriage yesterday.  I guess that's good for all of us overall. 

She came home crying today.  She didn't understand why her new guy went to another country due to a "family death" and not care to message her at all..    she's not even sure what is happening between them.  All of a sudden she is less mentally abusive to me while telling me all this.  There was some tiny logic in what was coming out of her mouth.   She's watching tarot cards on youtube -_- and then tells me we shouldn't have ever gotten married.   She says "you need to be with someone more logical and grounded, I am too emotional and needy".  While true from my perspective, I don't think she can have her needs if she wants children and a normal marriage. 

My only concern is my boy.  I heard someone mentioned that she may just sign off on the custody agreement because she is too occupied with her new guy.   Supposedly if he's gone, there's a chance she may backpedal on me.   

Thank you for your concern Gems.  I think the psychiatrist recommendation on separate therapist is probably because more privacy.  Maybe they want to each tell us we have something like bpd but refuse to do it while both seeing the same therapist.   Maybe I have some codependency issues that needs to be addressed.  Who knows.  But also, i think they want me to separate so I can learn to handle the things that are to come from this breakup.   

I've read a lot about bpd so I think I have a good grasp already.   I'm unsure if i want to pay forba therapist on my own right now. 
If the ex is truly bpd, a single therapist may help me understand why my ex says the things she says that are extreme when it comes to confidence killing.   I can see how a man can really lose confidence if there is lack of awareness as to whats going on.

[Turkish]

She's watching tarot cards on youtube -_- and then tells me we shouldn't have ever gotten married.

Be wary of magical thinking. My ex thinks that she has magical Bruha powers. Focus on you and your boy. There's also nothing wrong with being kind to her, but focus on you and your son. Play the long game.

[engiebpd]

I'm in a weird spot.  I'm trying to get this custody agreement signed soon.  The date is coming up.

This ex of mine woke me up at 3am crying saying she believes she is getting played by her new guy.  She comes cuddling into me and wants to sleep next to me.  I was super nice to her and told her I needed sleep and that she will be okay and to not think about it.  She says she got "betrayed" and her heart hurts so much..  "omg" I'm thinking in my head.  I get her to leave by saying i haveba lot of things to do next day. She asked if I can sleep by her in her room.  I said no.  She says she paid for a psychic and the psychic said she's getting played and none of it is real.  ZZZ.

3 weeks ago this woman broke it off with me, emasculated me, mentally abused me by blaming me the entire time why we are not working, slandered me to her family to justify her divorce intentions, having sex with her new guy, comes home and tells me I need to take testosterone etc.   All horrible things.

Please don't tell me she is going to want everything back. I neeed to get these documents signed and move on with my life.

What are your thoughts?  Is she going to now charml,   ask for forgiveness and if I don't grant these things, will she give me a hard time with this paperwork?   Thanks all

[SaltyDawg]

Use wise mind - first item under the tools menu bar above.

Follow your gut [logical mind], not your heart [emotional mind].

She cheated on you, plain and simple -  for me that is an unforgivable transgression, I suspect the same for you.  Follow your moral compass on this.

Yes, she is probably going to h-o-o-v-e-r you as part of her extinction burst if you don't allow it.

PD's most of them are about control, especially BPD/NPD.  As long as she perceives that she can control, she will likely NOT sign the papers.  If you can, do it sooner rather than later.  You may need to lull her into a false sense of security to do this, perhaps you will allude that you will do the things that she wants if she signs the papers with words like "I will seriously consider..." - and then when she signs it, follow through with what you have decided to do after you 'considered'.

In any event do the 7P's [Proper Prior Planning Prevents Pi$$ Poor Performance, plan for all logical and illogical behaviors with plans on how to handle each.] to minimize the damage to yourself.

[ForeverDad]

I know you see your child as a baby - and I'm sure she does even more - but your child is a toddler blending into a preschooler.  You can be a primary parent to a toddler or preschooler much easier than a babe in arms.

Now that her adult distraction has skipped, likely she will shift her focus to you and/or motherhood, even if she doesn't do as much mothering as she imagines.

Avoid any risk of another baby.  We assume intimacy has stopped, what with the infidelity, but if not then ensure you're in charge of birth control.  She may be even more determined to have a new baby fix her problems (and gain more leverage over you) than before.

Depending on a number of factors such as her level of mothering, how fixated she is on mothering, your local family court's policies and procedures, etc, you probably will have to be smart working out custody and a parenting plan.  Parenting is a long struggle for the next 15 years, so "choose your battles".  Focus on the important things that will have a long term impact.

For example, unless you step forward for a different outcome, most people, including family court, will assume mother is in charge of school decisions.  (Alert - this is only a couple years away!)  Beware of letting school default to her.  What if she wants to move elsewhere?  Even if it's not on the other side of the state, do you want to have to follow her around in order to keep parenting regularly?  If you are the "residential parent" it may very well be the "doesn't matter" item  (now) that will enable your long term parenting more than you realize (later).

Lots of orders may state "joint custody".  Sounds equal.  But what happens if the parents disagree?  Off you go to court, a mediator, or some other professional for a decision months later.  (When I filed something in court, it took a year or more to get addressed.)  So try to be the "Decision Maker" or have "Tie Breaker status" on the important matters.  Sure, she could still object but this way she would have to be the one to make the effort to take you to court.

[engiebpd]

Okay so he's "back".   He distanced from her because she went crazy over text messages to him for his lack of contact with her.   She's been very open to me about him and even shows me her text messages to get my opinion on their matter.  This is because I said I want her to be happy and I will support her decisions as long as we agree for 50/50 custody and we work towards an amicable coparenting relationship without fighting.   She seems to be on this page.

I talked with her lengthy last night and she is becoming aware that she either has bipolar or bpd.    She always suspected bipolar.  She explained to the new guy that she has fear of abandonment issues and that's why she acted crazy over texts.  Also said it's because she was hormonal due to having a miscarriage from his baby.

She told me that he said he can handle a little bit if crazy so now she's back in this infatuation stage with him.  I am pretty detached now and I am trying to focus on succeeding and making sure we get this 50/50 divorce and custody going.    I just had 1st meeting with her and the mediator today and it seem to go well so far.  She's preparing our divorce documents and then we can lay out the custody plans. 

I have to live with her for 8 months so I'm trying to keep things peaceful.  It's kinda wild how open she is to me about the affair guy.  I'm actually okay on the inside as I know I cannot be with this woman and this is the time to get out while my baby is only 3 years old.   Unfortunately so unfair for him.

They are moving extremely fast and this guy must be infatuated by her beauty. When she told him she has abandonment issues, he says "I'm not abandoning you" hah.   I guess he has no idea what these things mean yet.

She's been defending him by saying "I was acting crazy on him, he's been very busy with his work etc". 

My focus for now is to make sure the 50/50 is signed in place.  Her focus is this new relationship.

We are conflicting a bit on distance to the baby in our custody because she is so unsure what is happening with her and the new guy.

She tells me she suspects he's a bit crazy too.  She told me that I am too stable for her and that I may need to be with someone more logical and grounded (I was shocked by this comment because she is actually correct)   

I dont know how long theyll last but it seems they are both very dreamy during this infatuation stage.   

[Turkish]

Are you OK with her oversharing with you like this? My ex hid some things from me, but not really and was rather blatant about her beau. It's disrespectful and hurtful and lacking in empathy. Like you, however, I endured a lot to get her out of the house with minimal conflict and get the custody stipulation signed.

[ForeverDad]

Lots of orders may state "joint custody".  Sounds equal.  But what happens if the parents disagree?  Off you go to court, a mediator, or some other professional for a decision months later.  (When I filed something in court, it took a year or more to get addressed.)  So try to be the "Decision Maker" or have "Tie Breaker status" on the important matters.  Sure, she could still object but this way she would have to be the one to make the effort to take you to court.

Please check whether your state allows something similar to "Decision Maker" or "Tie Breaker status".  You could explain it in a calming way as one way to move ahead with decisions without having to get a professional involved, or even spend months waiting for the court to decide.  As I wrote before, two important aspects of custody that ought to be important for you are (1) school decisions and contact and (2) medical or at least authority for mental health to handle him getting counseling if ever needed in the years to come.

[engiebpd]

I felt I knew what's to come the moment when I saw her behavior a week after seeing the text messages on her affair.   I've experienced something like this when I was young.  It's the addiction.  I am unsure still if this guy wants love or is just using her for sex.   She is very good looking.

She is immaturily addicted to this guy and cannot wait for him to text her.    She is neglecting her child and life essentially.    She makes excuses for his lack of contact and the moment he texts her just a bit saying he's sorry, she's all into him again.  It's unbelievable.

I have made the full on choice the last couple of weeks to emotionally distance myself from all this and just focus on my baby and to get the paperwork signed.    And yes, it has gotten to the point where she sees I am okay with all this that she starts to push boundaries even more.  We are trying to finish out our lease.

Tonight, she missed this guy so much that she asked if it would be weird if he comes over.  Lol wtf? I said, don't do that to me, I let a lot go and you know this but you cannot bring this guy over while we have a baby sleeping in the other room and i in another room.  We are still processing our dissolution.   For goodness sake go get a damn hotel or something if you miss him I told her. 

So he pulls up in front of our apartment in a tinted truck and she goes down there for about 1.5 hours.    I srsly think she's out of her effin mind guys.    This is why I pushed myself to detach emotionally and able to listen to everything she says about her problems with the new guy.    This guy has her so wrapped he could just be using her as a sex machine.

She is not smart.  She was calling up pyschics and youtubing tarot cards when he went no contact for 2 weeks.  And it appears that when she's emotional, some kind if disorder comes out where she is possessed or becomes something else.     Earlier I told her, you are addicted to this infatuation.  She says "I am addicted to love"  this woman is closing into her 40s btw..   

I seriously cannot believe what I am seeing.   No normal person would behave in this manner when they have a 3 year old.   

All I am doing is Journaling everything in case this ever goes to court.    At this point I am just looking at 50/50 in CA in hopes that I get my baby without having to go to war.  She thinks I can come at her with shame and the pregnancy etc to take more but I am not going to.  I told her I just want 50/50 with peace.

[Couscous]

Your ex reminds me of my love addicted BPD mother who was so focused on her love-life that she basically forgot that she had children…. I think this kind of behavior usually indicates a level of rather profound emotional deprivation during childhood — which certainly was the case with for my mother.

The good news is that there is a good chance that she will be so caught up in her love addictions that you will end up becoming your child’s custodial parent regardless of what the official custody agreement is.

[SaltyDawg]

Get 50/50 custody as soon as you can.

Also, secretly find a new place to live, until...

The 50/50 custody is signed get the f- out of there to your new place, manipulate it so she can have this new guy take over the remainder of your lease, and let both him and her deal with the consequences of their fallout.  You don't want to wait 8 months for her/him to lose interest, then she may circle back to you...

She gets what she deserves [a new boy toy alone with her in 'her' home], the new guy gets what he wants [borderline sex], you get what you want [preferred custody, and escape from insanity where she is no longer your 'problem', or at least less of one].  A potential win-win-win situation.

Even though she is f-ing the other guy, you are still her FP [favorite person] and true borderlines have no emotional filter, and will tell you exactly what is on their mind good and/or bad especially to their FP.  Use this to your advantage during the split, gain valuable intel and use it to your advantage without letting her know, and then do it all at once, once she figures out what you did, she will likely go NC and/or rage on you.

Move as fast as you practically can, keep it moving, while there is inertia of the mutual infatuation between him/her.

Take care, document, be careful, and definitely work it to your advantage for your child as well as yourself.

[Turkish]

engiebpd,

A lot of what she says is what mine said. Joint custody is the default in Cali. I'm here. Don't give up anything less.

I hired a lawyer to write it out. I kept her updated. She was served by mail, avoiding the humiliation of being served by person.

I did this while she was still living with us living her double life with her young, college football stud. Communication tools helped, like SET and BIFF.

[ForeverDad]

Did I write on your thread how I walked out at the end of my divorce as "residential parent for school purposes"?  My point is that even with "50/50 custody" one of the parents is assigned in charge of schooling?  Don't assume it will be dear dad.  In my county, mother gets default preference in many aspects of custody unless something otherwise is placed in writing.

In my case our Custody evaluator had recommended we try (equal) Shared Parenting first. I told my ex when we were at the court house in conference on the long awaited Trial Day, "If I am not to be the residential parent for school purposes then let's go in to the judge and start the trial."

Mind you, both lawyers insisted it meant nothing.  And it didn't, well, not directly.  But... once I had that hat in place, my son (in kindergarten) had to attend a school in my area.  All of a sudden that seemingly minor clause mean a great deal.

Here's the kicker... During the divorce her school had stated they had resolved issues with mother and had nothing to report to the court.  However, once I was the responsible parent for school, I applied for Open Enrollment so son could stay there another couple months until the school year ended.  But mother had more 'incidents' with the school staff and the vice principal, as I recall, told me the school board had rejected my application for Open Enrollment and I had ONE DAY to register him in my own school district.  Oh yeah, something big had happened, some scene in front of the entire school.

All because I made sure I was in charge of schooling.  Schools often have to quietly suffer with the problem parent or parents, but if they can boot them elsewhere, they will.

I don't know whether your spouse will be high conflict or not, but if you can include a clause, perhaps among other clauses*, that you're the residential parent for school, you will be spared a lot of grief later.

* Other clauses may detail which holidays will be specified on a holidays list, which parent handles religious instruction, which parent in charge of medical heath, mental health, etc.

[engiebpd]

Thank you all for your responses.   I'm in CA, I sent in a temporary proposal to our mediator and I also asked her about the residential school parent clause.  

Some updates:   we went to a mediator last week and it seems amicable for 50/50.  There are some conflicts that our mediator says we may need to resolve.   It's her uncommitted to where she will live when our lease ends.   She's unsure because she's waiting to see if she can convince her new guy if he can move to our county.   He previously asked her to move out of state, she declines because of our child, then suggests a rich area that is 2.5 hrs from our current residential county.  Which she was interested in and tried to convince me to send our baby to school there.  I said no way so now she's trying to convince him to buy a place in our county.

Over the weekend, she went nuts via texts on him since he ghosted her the whole time.  So I became her favorite person on the weekend and we talked a lot (which was what one of the posters mentioned that a borderline will say what's on their mind to their favorite person and being super honest)

 She did say she wants what's best for our boy and I was telling her that the best thing is that she does whatever takes to stay in our county and in our area that way if he cries for mommy or daddy, one of us can show up to see him.   She "agrees" but who knows as she can easily be swayed by her new boy toy.   She thinks that he is super in love with her so she believes she can convince him and his daughter to move here.  This is essentially where we will conflict when custody signing will occur.

My lawyer told me that we cannot force a 3 year old to remain in the school here for a lengthy time but the judge may see it not in the baby's interest to remove him from an area he grew up in so fast.

So while I became her favorite person over the weekend just because he ghosted her, she tells me just today that she talked with him before work and that he is still committed to her.    When she came home from work, I felt a slight split again.   But i avoided talking to her that evening.  

Our mediator sent us each a retainers agreement and first deposit fee.   I paid mine and signed mine but she was "tired" and will do it tomorrow.  We will see.

I worry her family will try to stall her from signing anything because they are only told what she wants them to know.  Which is that I am a bad husband, unemotiobally available, and that I dont love her... "we dont love eachother anymore"

They have no idea of the affair and that she is currently in a full blown relationships.   I know that they know that she is not that bright so I can imagine them telling her not to sign anything until they see it.  

However when we briefly talked about her family trying to stall, i did tell her it's because they don't know the entire story and believes we can reconcile at some point since her reasonings for the divorce is not good and that she is making a mistake - this is one of my anxieties.

I did tell her that we must do this as soon as possible so that her new guy can try to marry her.   She seems convinced but she is moving slow- guess we won't know until tomorrow.


I've been documenting and taking pictures/videos of myself with the baby on the daily.   I dont really know how well this will work in court though.  It seems everyone on this board is really for it.

What should I do if she starts backpeddling, stalling or not agree?

Do I have enough evidence to do a court order and try for more than 50%?  My family seems to believe so but they are not lawyers.

How can you threaten more custody?

While everything seems amicable, I do get paranoid about her doing some homework behind  my back on all of this.   She isn't that bright and is very lazy so I am acting on this with that info in mind.

Her being "back" with her new toy is giving me mixed emotions.   While I rather him being truly committed so it gets her off my back.  I wasn't sure how to feel when he ghosted her.   If he's not real, then she will struggle and I have to deal with it because I live with her.  If he is real, then I may have a better shot at getting custody without a court battle.

Please respond to my questions above as I am very curious and thank you again for your inputs.

[SaltyDawg]

My lawyer told me that we cannot force a 3 year old to remain in the school here for a lengthy time but the judge may see it not in the baby's interest to remove him from an area he grew up in so fast.
Agreed, the judge likely knows that 3 year olds will not remember specifics from this time period later in their life, so living in a specific area really isn't a consideration, so the child will not be tied to a specific location.  The judge will typically rule in what is the best interest of the child.  Make sure that you can prove that you can provide a good upbringing, a better one that the new 'rich' guy can provide.  Also prove that you are a better parent, than the other.  Go for 50/50, and be the better parent.  Do not agree to any changes, just as her family is urging her to do.  However, do be prepared to prove to her family, if you come in contact with them about her infidelity; this can be very powerful, in persuading them, especially if they are not knowledgeable of it.  Photos, social media (if she isn't posting on hers).  Be prepared, I have known of parents of a girl siding with a scorned boyfriend in the short term because of her infidelity, until the mother's unconditional love game through some time later and both were treated equally but seperated.

7P's - Proper Prior Planning Prevents Pi$$ Poor Performance.

So while I became her favorite person over the weekend just because he ghosted her, she tells me just today that she talked with him before work and that he is still committed to her.    When she came home from work, I felt a slight split again.   But i avoided talking to her that evening.  
While he is together with her, she will prefer him, she is conflicted between you and him.  So, it will feel like a split.  Just listen to her, take mental notes, and use it to your advantage.  However, do not expect this arrangement to last, especially if becomes more influential in her life.

I worry her family will try to stall her from signing anything because they are only told what she wants them to know.  Which is that I am a bad husband, unemotiobally available, and that I dont love her... "we dont love eachother anymore"
Gather proof for her family of her infidelity, use the BIFF [be Brief, Informative, Friendly and Firm] method of communication.  Just explain that you want 50/50 custody since she cheated on you [showing proof], be friendly wish her the best expressing your desire for what is best for the child, but be firm on your rights as the child's father.

However when we briefly talked about her family trying to stall, i did tell her it's because they don't know the entire story and believes we can reconcile at some point since her reasonings for the divorce is not good and that she is making a mistake - this is one of my anxieties.
Anxiety is only natural, you don't know what is going to happen to your child.  Follow the advise of your attorney, they usually know best.

I did tell her that we must do this as soon as possible so that her new guy can try to marry her.   She seems convinced but she is moving slow- guess we won't know until tomorrow.
If it takes her a little bit to secure a retainer fee, that is understandable.  However, if it drags on, then be worried.  Talk to your attorney for the typical timeline on this.


I've been documenting and taking pictures/videos of myself with the baby on the daily.   I dont really know how well this will work in court though.  It seems everyone on this board is really for it.
That is good.  However, do document her being irrational, that will be more impactful.

What should I do if she starts backpeddling, stalling or not agree?

Do I have enough evidence to do a court order and try for more than 50%?  My family seems to believe so but they are not lawyers.

How can you threaten more custody?
Talk to your attorney on this.  Make sure they know the full story, and follow their advice.  This will be money well invested.

While everything seems amicable, I do get paranoid about her doing some homework behind  my back on all of this.   She isn't that bright and is very lazy so I am acting on this with that info in mind.
This is always possible.  Practice 7 P's here.  "Hope for the best; prepare for the worst."  You cannot control what she does.  However, you do control what you do - the better prepared you are, the better the outcome, generally speaking.  However, if her new guy is 'rich' as you have alluded to, money does talk in this situation, so plan for it.

Her being "back" with her new toy is giving me mixed emotions.   While I rather him being truly committed so it gets her off my back.  I wasn't sure how to feel when he ghosted her.   If he's not real, then she will struggle and I have to deal with it because I live with her.  If he is real, then I may have a better shot at getting custody without a court battle.
Wishful thinking of her being 'committed'.  If this new guy has half a brain, after she sees how she treated you, it should be a red flag to him.  However, you need him to be 'real enough' or interested in her long enough for her to sign the papers.

[ForeverDad]

... she can easily be swayed by her new boy toy.   She thinks that he is super in love with her so she believes she can convince him and his daughter to move here.  This is essentially where we will conflict when custody signing will occur.

So he is the "primary parent" of his child?  (So often courts will default to assigning primary parent status to mothers.  Doesn't mean that dads can't get that but that means a dad usually has to step up and seek that.)

My lawyer told me that we cannot force a 3 year old to remain in the school here for a lengthy time but the judge may see it not in the baby's interest to remove him from an area he grew up in so fast.

The reality courts face is that once divorced the parents will live apart.  No one knows how far apart in future years.  Typically one parent is assigned as primary parent for various issues such as "in which parent's area will the child attend school?" especially when the parents move around in future years.  Or... the various responsibilities (school, doctor, counselor, religion, etc) can be split between the parents.  That's what I tried to explain in my previous posts where I said you can choose your battles for which things that matter long term and yet still are largely 50/50 overall.

[engiebpd]

The mediator sent me a document to sign as petitioner of a marriage of dissolution with my proposed requested custody.   
She says this does not matter as much until the final judgement comes. 

She says things can change and that my ex wife may reject some parts of it. Things changing could be her moving to another county with her bf. 

I guess the good news is that things are moving and that she signed our mediator retainer and paid for her portion of it.   I don't like though how things can just change.  After she signs, wouldn't it be hard to change unless she spends money to do so?   

[SaltyDawg]

The good news is that it IS moving, and seems to be moving in a direction that you want.

However, like your advisor indicated, it could change.  Do not let your guard down, but do continue to practice 7 P's here AND "Hope for the best; prepare for the worst."

Take care & good luck.

[ForeverDad]

If you two can't agree on the terms, then what?  Do you expect that if/when "my ex wife may reject some parts of it" that you will feel powerless and not contest it?  Or step up for yourself as father?  I suspect that if the mediator can't bring you two to agreement then I have a few concerns.

Some mediators, hopefully not yours, may try to fix the impasses by asking the more reasonable parent to give in.  A mediator ought to have the interests of the children in mind as well as not just getting a deal done.

However, if the mediation process for dissolution fails, can you prepare yourself for a divorce to ensure yourself and your child of the "least bad" outcome?

Will there be a temporary order during the divorce process?  The structure of a temp order is important.  Often, unless the court sees a need to adjust the terms, a temp order can easily morph relatively unchanged into a final decree.  Hence the need to try your best to get the best temp order possible.

In my own experience, in my divorce, it wasn't a walk in a park.  I walked out from a brief half hour hearing with only alternate weekends and mother walked out with temporary custody and majority time.  My name for the magistrate?  Sir Bump-on-a-Log. He followed the state and county's policies, procedures and default mother preferences.  And my lawyer merely told me "We'll fix it later."  And yes it did get fixed... eventually... just two years later at the end of my divorce.

[engiebpd]

She's telling me everything about her situation with this guy.   I am shocked by the things she saying.   She feels as if she's in sync with this guy.  She's smoking weed and drinking with him. 

The bizarre thing is that those were the things we did when we were in our honeymoon stage.   At some point when we got out of our honeymoon stage, she barely wanted to drink and she didn't want to smoke weed anymore.  We pretty much stopped doing any of the fun stuff we used to do.   

It's as if once she is bored, she also stops doing things herself.   This has to be some signs of real splitting here.   I notice that she just loves "new" things.   New cars, new place to live, new toys, material possessions...and once she's over them, she discards them. 

And her lack of awareness is so high that she absolutely has no idea she does this.   

[engiebpd]

Thank you Forever Dad, I will keep in mind all you have said.   

[Turkish]

I lived with my ex for 4 months while she phoned it in as a "teen mom." One night I slept on our son's trundle and next to our baby's crib. Mommy didn't come home until 5AM, out with her beau.

[SinisterComplex]

I lived with my ex for 4 months while she phoned it in as a "teen mom." One night I slept on our son's trundle and next to our baby's crib. Mommy didn't come home until 5AM, out with her beau.

You are a better man than I big bro...I could never do such a thing. To that end you have the fortitude of a lion and balls of steel.  

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[SaltyDawg]

She's telling me everything about her situation with this guy.   I am shocked by the things she saying.   She feels as if she's in sync with this guy.  She's smoking weed and drinking with him. 

The bizarre thing is that those were the things we did when we were in our honeymoon stage.   At some point when we got out of our honeymoon stage, she barely wanted to drink and she didn't want to smoke weed anymore.  We pretty much stopped doing any of the fun stuff we used to do.   

It's as if once she is bored, she also stops doing things herself.   This has to be some signs of real splitting here.   I notice that she just loves "new" things.   New cars, new place to live, new toys, material possessions...and once she's over them, she discards them. 

And her lack of awareness is so high that she absolutely has no idea she does this.   

Definitely sounds like 'rinse and repeat' just with a new guy victim.

Thank you for sharing your 'bored' observation, my I never really realized my uBPD wife does the same exact thing - I couldn't quite put a finger on that, until now.  Now that you have made observation, it really resonates with me as well, there are so many parallels on how she treats me and objects.

[engiebpd]

We had a session together with our marriage counselor.  It's intended for how to coparent from here on out.  

My ex asked me that she's having problems and wants to talk to the therapist about it.  I said go ahead.  The entire time she talked about how much she is inlove with this guy and wanted her advice as to whether or not he is committed to her.  She told her the love bombing things he says and wanted her opinion.    Our counselor gave me a "wtf" look but proceeded to answer her questions.

2 days later our counselor sent me a text  wanting to talk to me and told me on the phone that over her entire career she has never seen a more bizarre session.   My ex literally doesn't realize that she was talking about a guy she had an affair in a marriage counseling session with me.   Mind you, we broke up just 4 weeks ago, and her timeline on everything is obvious and very fast.  

My counselor told me that she thinks her emotions or mental growth is stunted and she sounded like a 15 year old.

She reached out personally to discuss with our psychiatrist because she is very concerned for my ex wife.

[ForeverDad]

Save such texts.  Often it is very hard later on to get documents or records from professionals, typically for privacy concerns (and also to avoid lawsuits or complaints to licensing boards).

[Couscous]

My ex asked me that she's having problems and wants to talk to the therapist about it.  I said go ahead.  The entire time she talked about how much she is inlove with this guy and wanted her advice as to whether or not he is committed to her.  She told her the love bombing things he says and wanted her opinion.    Our counselor gave me a "wtf" look but proceeded to answer her questions.

2 days later our counselor sent me a text saying that over her entire career she has never seen a more bizarre session.   My ex literally doesn't realize that she was talking about a guy she had an affair in a marriage counseling session with me.   Mind you, we broke up just 4 weeks ago, and her timeline on everything is obvious and very fast. 

My counselor told me that she thinks her emotions or mental growth is stunted and she sounded like a 15 year old.

She reached out personally to discuss with our psychiatrist because she is very concerned for my ex wife.

Wow, this is an incredible story. I think her assessment is spot on, although I think most BPDs are stunted at about 12 years of age.

It’s unfortunate that so few therapists seem to have any knowledge of personality disorders.

[engiebpd]

Save such texts.  Often it is very hard later on to get documents or records from professionals, typically for privacy concerns (and also to avoid lawsuits or complaints to licensing boards).

My fault, I don't know why I wrote my sentence like that. I was probably tired. She texted me that she wanted to talk and later revealed that information to me over the phone.   

[SaltyDawg]

2 days later our counselor sent me a text  wanting to talk to me and told me on the phone that over her entire career she has never seen a more bizarre session.   My ex literally doesn't realize that she was talking about a guy she had an affair in a marriage counseling session with me.   Mind you, we broke up just 4 weeks ago, and her timeline on everything is obvious and very fast.  

My wife often displays BPD symptoms while 'in-session,' it happens most of the time with me [it is very rare for a session to not exhibit one or more symptoms/traits of the borderline], the more my wife is comfortable talking about it [I don't judge her, nor does the therapist, most of the time] the more symptoms and traits she displays.  At least the T sees what I am going through, and is taking appropriate action to address it.

The behavior that you have described, I have seen many times, while not in a clinical session, it is on a Facebook group by borderlines for borderlines.  The more severe the person exhibits these and other symptoms, the more they do it, the more comfortable they are talking about it.

A true borderline, has no filter, and will speak whatever is on their mind without any thought for the consequences of their actions.  My wife has been disciplined at work for this very issue.

Their behaviors and lack of filter is truly mind blowing.

[ForeverDad]

2 days later our counselor sent me a text  wanting to talk to me and told me on the phone that over her entire career she has never seen a more bizarre session.

Similarly, my lawyer said he'd never met a crazier ex than mine.  I'm told he will use my case as an example of the most protracted divorce/parenting case he's ever had.  He just told me that the magistrate who handled my last hearing (two full days 9 years ago) is retiring and she mentioned to him recently my case was the strangest she'd handled.  He told me the story the magistrate reminisced about was when my ex asked me to bring her restaurant food to the exchange and then she claimed I was late for the child exchange.

[Couscous]

Similarly, my lawyer said he'd never met a crazier ex than mine.  I'm told he will use my case as an example of the most protracted divorce/parenting case he's ever had.  He just told me that the magistrate who handled my last hearing (two full days 9 years ago) is retiring and she mentioned to him recently my case was the strangest she'd handled.  He told me the story the magistrate reminisced about was when my ex asked me to bring her restaurant food to the exchange and then she claimed I was late for the child exchange.

What stories like these tell me is that, paradoxically, marriages that include a pwBPD seldom end in divorce. This must mean that a partner of a pwBPD is deriving some benefit from the union, and are getting their needs met in spite of how destructive the relationship is.

[ForeverDad]

What stories like these tell me is that, paradoxically, marriages that include a pwBPD seldom end in divorce. This must mean that a partner of a pwBPD is deriving some benefit from the union, and are getting their needs met in spite of how destructive the relationship is.

It's not quite as simple as that.  I had been married over a decade before it really went full scale dysfunctional, though it had been getting worse very gradually over the years.  I did not separate and divorce until that was the only option left to remain a parent.

It worsened suddenly when we had a child, it as as though she only then saw me as a father figure.  Unfortunately, her father was never in her life and she always said when she was 3 years old her stepfather came into her family.  He was an abuser.  So when our child was 3 years old, she was comparing me to her evil stepfather.  I could not remain with her in that state or she would have concocted something to excise me from her and 'her' child's lives.

Would I still be married today if we had remained childless?  I just don't know how much more her dysfunction and conflict would have risen.

[Couscous]

I did not separate and divorce until that was the only option left to remain a parent.

I’m sure you had very good reasons for staying as long as you did. All that matters is that you eventually got out, and you deserve kudos for doing so.

[SaltyDawg]

What stories like these tell me is that, paradoxically, marriages that include a pwBPD seldom end in divorce. This must mean that a partner of a pwBPD is deriving some benefit from the union, and are getting their needs met in spite of how destructive the relationship is.

I am going to push back a little bit.  I am remaining in the relationship for a few reasons.

1.  I am staying for the benefit of my children.  If I were to leave, they would become NC - no contact when they become adults; I am performing damage control to reversing/reducing the extreme psychological [weeks away from death had I not intervened when I did] damage to moderate to severe to them.  I know me being absentee father [through my career] and left them with a mentally challenged individual [I had no idea how severe until June '22] of my uBPDw.  Through challenging my wife's narrative I have gained the respect of my children.  I have given both of them emotional tools to deal with my wife's irrational behaviors.  For this reason alone, I will not leave my children with a 'monster' until both of my children are free and clear of this situation.  I definitely feel trapped, as I have the stereotype of being a sailor, and my wife the perfect church lady -- it sucks.  I much rather deal with the devil, I do know, that the extreme situation of being divorced to a potential psychopath.

2.  My uBPDw is an accountant and valedictorian smart, she has maneuvered the money so if a divorce happens I will be financially ruined going from a multi-millionaire to someone with a couple hundred grand to live on for the rest of my life.  Not cool, but that is the reality of my situation.

3.  Most of the time my wife is a very good person; however, when something lets loose inside of her mind, she becomes a very bad person.  A Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde type personality dynamic.  I like the good version of my wife; however, I hate the bad version of my wife.  My relationship with my wife is too bad to stay in, but is too good to leave, so in this respect your observation is correct.

4.  While not verified, my individual therapist thinks I may be a codependent caretaker of a borderline which makes it very difficult to break the trauma bond [even though I have successfully done that in a previous relationship with an uBPD/NPDexgf] due to the intense attachment style of a codependent.  In other words, I have my own mental issues; albeit, not anywhere near as severe as my uBPDw. 

5.  My moral compass won't let me.  I do believe in the sanctity of marriage and the marriage vows.  I see my wife as having a mental 'sickness', and I will stand by her in 'sickness' and in health.  So, I am learning about BPD, and how to treat it, so my family can have the least amount of impact from this very impactful condition.  This reason pretty much sums up yet another reason to stay, and that is to care for my wife's mental 'sickness'.  I know I am affected by F.O.G.; however, my conscience won't let me do otherwise.

I’m sure you had very good reasons for staying as long as you did. All that matters is that you eventually got out, and you deserve kudos for doing so.

Yes, my reasons, are good, but I am still in my relationship with a pwBPD.  So, if you can't beat em, join em.  Since I cannot accept or leave the 'evil' version of my wife, it is my goal to make her self-aware of the 'monster' that she is - this has been partially accomplished, so her moral compass [which is a good one] will encourage my wife to correct her more severe behaviors.  I am also highlighting her behaviors to our couple's T who is in direct communication with her individual T, in order to address the issues that my wife is not directly aware of.  I think my wife's individual T is doing a really good job with her.

I hope this makes sense to you.  I am documenting it, primarily here and with a penpal too in a similar situation as mine.  If successful, I will definitely share a summarized version for anyone who is in a similar situation to benefit from it. 

lmk if you have any more thoughts or observations on this, as I am doing everything I can to better my own situation from learning from others, even though I am conflicted in my thinking, I am formulating strategies to mitigate the damage, and hopefully making it better.

[engiebpd]

3.  Most of the time my wife is a very good person; however, when something lets loose inside of her mind, she becomes a very bad person.  A Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde type personality dynamic.  I like the good version of my wife; however, I hate the bad version of my wife.  My relationship with my wife is too bad to stay in, but is too good to leave, so in this respect your observation is correct.

This here is key in my opinion about BPD or possibly a cluster B that is not truly devious.  I know my wife is a good person too and can be rational when she is in a normal state of mind.  

Salty, does your wife change at any moment she becomes emotional?  Does this switch happen when she gets even slightly emotional then does or say something to then further her to become even more emotional and thus becomes an awful person?

My counselor told me last week that she was surprised by this sudden change from my ex wife.  My counselor said, there are times in the session where she is levelheaded.  Our counselor came up with some strategies to bring us into a place where we were no longer arguing and fighting (which was driving me insane in our relationship and exhausting for me).  The stableness of our relationship was doing something internally to my wife.  She is addicted to friction and chaos but is unaware of it.

The problem with my ex wife with recent events is that I learned that she can be easily manipulated.   Salty, you have a rough situation as you say your wife is smart.   I have read on forums that many bpd women are quite smart.  My ex wife is not smart at all.  She jumps to conclusions and gets upset when someone tries to show logic or evidence.  She is reads deeply into astrology and anything that is just vague - usually something that is easy to understand and not specific.   She's also a feel type person "i feel this, therefore, it is this".  

She feels like she and this guy has a strong connection but is completely unaware that they're just in the infatuation stage.  We all can get into an infatuation stage with almost anyone if we allow it to happen.  She sees our temporary disconnect (because we are both exhausted from working and having a 1-2 year old baby) as if we were never in love.   She totally blocked off the memories of our infatuation stage - possibly to convince her that this divorce needs to happen.   I know that it will hit her hard later because this tends to happen to bpd women when they have time to reflect and they get into friction with new victim.

Although I will take some responsibility for our disconnect.  I overlooked it a little bit as I was spending too much time trying to make money and taking care of our baby that was going through temper tantrums.  I was exhausted every single day.  Our counselor made gave my ex wife a schedule for us to spend time together because my ex wife always feels like it was never enough.  

She needs to take accountability that she never really expressed this disconnect in counseling.  She kept saying we are doing great!   Which then makes me overlook even further thinking that she should know that we are both just tired and this is a temporary phase.   Once the baby is in school more, we would have more time to ourselves.   I was wrong!  I was vocal about this many times too but it didn't matter.

Due to my ex wife's weakness, she allowed a man to sweet talk her and then infiltrate her emotions.  She was lacking attention and this guy gave that to her.   She has become attached and obsessed over this guy.  She won't listen to me or our counselor or anyone at this point if we were to tell her that this is not real love.  Because it's her feeling, it's absolute.   Everything wrong he does, she defends him.  He love bombed her so much in the beginning and promised her this "amazing" life with him, she discarded me immediately and slandered me awfully because she needs to have strong reasons to divorce me to her family and friends - since they do not know about the affair.  

She thought this guy was rich, but he's actually not that rich.  I suspect the family  thinks something is off though.  The truth is, she just wants to live an easy fantasy life and that's what she is dreaming with this guy.  She didn't realize how tough married life is with children in general.  She just wanted things without the consequences.  She wanted to be married, she wanted to have a baby, she wanted wanted wanted but never thought that it takes away other things.  It's as if she wants to be single and also be a mother and also be married happily.  It's so ridiculous.

Salty, I feel for you.  I have to consider that I am in somewhat of a lucky position if things go the way I hope it goes with my custody situation.  My child is young enough to not remember we separate.  This was at the top of my mind when making any decision.   There was a 2 - 3 day period where this guy ghosted my exwife and she even mentioned reconciliation with me.  I'm said "absolutely not".   She is now forced to be committed to this guy or find someone else - which she is also now on dating sites to distract herself from when this guy ignores here for a couple of days.  My reason for this is not a selfish one.  I know her well enough now that she will leave me at any point in our marriage and I ABSOLUTELY cannot let her do this when my child is older.  If she does this to him at 5 years old, I will be so crushed for him.   I am already crushed for him, but this timing is the best at any point.

You are a strong person Salty because I know what you are doing for the best interest for your kids.  You are strategically making it work so that your kids won't be ruined.  This is also one of the reasons why I am trying to finish off my lease with her.  It's so that when we move, my 3 year old will see us both packing our stuff and moving to different places.   I don't want him to see one of us leave all of a sudden.  I made sure to spend time with him without her and be in my room most of the time.  She sometimes tries to drag me out to an amusement park with him.  I don't want to reopen a wound.  

For me, if this separation is inevitable, this is the time to rip off that badaid as it'll be in the best interest for my baby and also myself.  And she wants it because she is in lala land with this guy.   I told her that if she were to marry him, obviously we have to be fast with our divorce and custody.  She agreessssssssssssssssssssss

[Turkish]

The truth is, she just wants to live an easy fantasy life and that's what she is dreaming with this guy.  She didn't realize how tough married life is with children in general.  She just wanted things without the consequences.  She wanted to be married, she wanted to have a baby, she wanted wanted wanted but never thought that it takes away other things.  It's as if she wants to be single and also be a mother and also be married happily.  It's so ridiculous.

This sounds familiar. My ex wrote in her journals, "I wasn't ready for this!" 31 years old 

She married barely out of his teens boy-toy and they both got caught up in an insurance MLM where they'd get rich. Right. She grew to resent him soon after she realized she had become The Provider. Then mutual DV (which I predicted and told her) and a late night tearful call, "I never should have left you!" Maybe I was boring to her and maybe I couldn't compete with a young college football stud, but that's fantasy substituted for the reality of running a home with a baby and a 3 year old.

I'll give her some credit for working on her past trauma. It's too bad our family as it was had to be destroyed and also her then marriage to her dream man.

There's nothing wrong with being kind to your wife, but divorce by design is adversarial. Protect you and protect your child.

Hijacking is against guidelines so I'll keep this short: my ex once told me about her aunt and uncle. Years ago, they both decided to remain in the same home, but do their own things. I really think that my ex would have stayed many months or even longer if I hadn't pushed her out. Two of ex's female cousins have major emotional issues to this day and I can't help but think his they grew up affecting them. Similarly, so were my ex, her older brother , and her slightly younger sister, all witnessing a serial cheating dad.

[SaltyDawg]

Engie BPD,

3.  Most of the time my wife is a very good person; however, when something lets loose inside of her mind, she becomes a very bad person.  A Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde type personality dynamic.  I like the good version of my wife; however, I hate the bad version of my wife.  My relationship with my wife is too bad to stay in, but is too good to leave, so in this respect your observation is correct.

This here is key in my opinion about BPD or possibly a cluster B that is not truly devious.  I know my wife is a good person too and can be rational when she is in a normal state of mind.  
Agreed, my wife is that way too.

Salty, does your wife change at any moment she becomes emotional?  Does this switch happen when she gets even slightly emotional then does or say something to then further her to become even more emotional and thus becomes an awful person?
Yes, she changes at any moment whenever she becomes triggered.  Apparently she used to go from 0-100% full rage in less than a second - totally ruled by her emotions - the last time she did this was in September/October.  She has not done the 'borderline rage' since November when she has become partially self-aware of it - nothing short of a miracle on how she can control her rage that was previously uncontrollable by her.  I cannot explain how she has been able to change.  However, and this is a big however, while the 0-100 rages have stopped, the 0-100 splitting has NOT.  She will also split just as fast.

I actually recorded our interactions [predominately to record how unstable and irrational she was], and listened to them when I was calm and meditative several hours or a day later, her emotional state actually feeds on my emotional state - although I was unaware of it while it was happening in real time - I have since adjusted my behavior to avoid her becoming pre-triggered.  A normal person would not get triggered, but BPD is not normal.  My responses would do what I would call a 'pre-triggering' event in my wife, where she would become agitated or anxious.  For lack of a better term, I would call it emotional pre-arousal.  Depending on the topic matter, she would either revert back to baseline, or if I triggered her further, she would explode and/or become irrational at a moment's notice - a really fast response.  Going from baseline, to pre-triggered, to full-triggered would be anywhere a few minutes, to a few seconds, and occasionally less than a second, depending on how triggered she had become.

My counselor told me last week that she was surprised by this sudden change from my ex wife.  My counselor said, there are times in the session where she is levelheaded.  Our counselor came up with some strategies to bring us into a place where we were no longer arguing and fighting (which was driving me insane in our relationship and exhausting for me).  The stableness of our relationship was doing something internally to my wife.  She is addicted to friction and chaos but is unaware of it.

I'm not surprised at all - I have observed my wife's interpersonal interactions for decades and they have become very predictable.  Whenever there is a difficult person in her work dynamic, it spills over into the home dynamic too.  Eventually she will encounter a toxic personality - generally a NPD'd individual, usually a supervisor, at work, and that would really trigger her at home, since she cannot lash out at that person at work, she redirects her emotions to whom she feels the safest - that person is me.  This is a dynamic that plays itself out over and over again.  When there is no toxic personality at her work, she is much more level headed at home.  I suspect you have a different dynamic with your wife in this regard.  However, my wife might have an 'addiction to chaos' as when things initially became smooth after the boundaries were initially established, they were repeatedly sabotaged over and over again, until the past 2-1/2 weeks.  Also, at the beginning of our relationship, she deliberately avoided conflict with me for 'fear of abandonment' issues.  I suspect my wife doesn't like chaos; however, it has become so familiar, when it is missing, something is wrong, so she creates it again - this is the cycle I am currently trying to break in her.

The problem with my ex wife with recent events is that I learned that she can be easily manipulated.   Salty, you have a rough situation as you say your wife is smart.   I have read on forums that many bpd women are quite smart.  My ex wife is not smart at all.  She jumps to conclusions and gets upset when someone tries to show logic or evidence.  She is reads deeply into astrology and anything that is just vague - usually something that is easy to understand and not specific.   She's also a feel type person "i feel this, therefore, it is this".  

You mentioned that your pwBPD is 'easily manipulated'.  Well for my wife, that all depends on how you define 'easily'.  Yes, I can manipulate her using tools like the 'seed planting tool'.  However, this tool takes time to implement, but it is 'easy' to plant the seed as her need is more instant gratification and less strategic planning - except for money matters which is OCPD-like for her with occasional impulsive spending which is really unique to my wife.  She also recognizes when I use disarming statement like 'I hear you' as her T has trained her to do that with me, so I cannot use that term, but I have to use more clever words when implementing the SET communication tool.  My wife is not into astrology or anything equally as vague as fortune cookies and the like.  However, she is a person who responds immediately to whatever feeling she is feeling at the moment with very little logical thought processes behind - in essence she wears her emotions on her sleeve, and she knows it.  When my wife becomes educated on something that her T has trained her on, I can no longer use that tool, as she weaponizes it to her advantage and recognizes it when I use it.  Her therapy, definitely keeps me on my toes where I have to constantly adjust to new dynamics - I often recognize new tools that she has been trained with on me - and I adjust accordingly.

She feels like she and this guy has a strong connection but is completely unaware that they're just in the infatuation stage.  We all can get into an infatuation stage with almost anyone if we allow it to happen.  

My wife interpreted our infatuation stage as 'love'.  However, when she was no longer infatuated, she no longer felt 'love' for me.  She equates infatuation for love.  I know she cares for me, but she cannot equate that as 'love' although her actions speak otherwise.

She sees our temporary disconnect (because we are both exhausted from working and having a 1-2 year old baby) as if we were never in love.   She totally blocked off the memories of our infatuation stage - possibly to convince her that this divorce needs to happen.   I know that it will hit her hard later because this tends to happen to bpd women when they have time to reflect and they get into friction with new victim.
I agree with your assessment.  However, my wife's T's are working with my wife on this, and I do see some progress, much slower than they, she and I anticipated.

Although I will take some responsibility for our disconnect.  I overlooked it a little bit as I was spending too much time trying to make money and taking care of our baby that was going through temper tantrums.  I was exhausted every single day.  Our counselor made gave my ex wife a schedule for us to spend time together because my ex wife always feels like it was never enough.
This is nearly identical to what I am experiencing with my wife.  My wife, when she was splitting me black, in session, in front of our couple's T telling her that I do absolutely nothing for the relationship - Our couple's T gave me a homework assignment to keep score [counter intuitive by any standard of couple's therapy] on how much of her primary two love languages I am doing.  It turned to be 75 and 1/4 hours per week of effort I was making.  After deducting for sleeping/showering.  That left a little over 5 hours per day for me and 'self-care', and all other waking hours 10-1/2 to 16 hours per day were spent trying to satisfy her, which is 5x to 10x the overly generous amount allocated by the "His Needs, Her Needs" marriage counseling book that quantifies this effort to at least 15 hours per week with 7-8 hours done by the man and the other 7-8 hours done by the woman.  I was doing 75 per week, and she was less than one hour per week [now two hours due to homework assignments] - something is definitely wrong with that picture.

She needs to take accountability that she never really expressed this disconnect in counseling.  She kept saying we are doing great!   Which then makes me overlook even further thinking that she should know that we are both just tired and this is a temporary phase.   Once the baby is in school more, we would have more time to ourselves.   I was wrong!  I was vocal about this many times too but it didn't matter.
I hear you loud and clear here, same thing happened with me when our children were and are still in school - she gets too busy with her part-time job and volunteer work to pay me much attention.

Due to my ex wife's weakness, she allowed a man to sweet talk her and then infiltrate her emotions.  She was lacking attention and this guy gave that to her.   She has become attached and obsessed over this guy.  She won't listen to me or our counselor or anyone at this point if we were to tell her that this is not real love.  Because it's her feeling, it's absolute.   Everything wrong he does, she defends him.  He love bombed her so much in the beginning and promised her this "amazing" life with him, she discarded me immediately and slandered me awfully because she needs to have strong reasons to divorce me to her family and friends - since they do not know about the affair.  
I have not experienced this, as it has not happened in my relationship.  However, if it were to happen, I could and would ethically end the relationship, much like you are doing now.  In fact, I did this very thing with my previous uBPD/NPDexgf

She thought this guy was rich, but he's actually not that rich.  I suspect the family  thinks something is off though.  The truth is, she just wants to live an easy fantasy life and that's what she is dreaming with this guy.  She didn't realize how tough married life is with children in general.  She just wanted things without the consequences.  She wanted to be married, she wanted to have a baby, she wanted wanted wanted but never thought that it takes away other things.  It's as if she wants to be single and also be a mother and also be married happily.  It's so ridiculous.
This is the way my wife thinks of me.  I had to work my $$ off for everything.  She wants to have the male role in the relationship and leave the domestic work to me - it doesn't work that way.  I am agreeable to split the domestic work 50/50, but that doesn't happen.

Salty, I feel for you.  I have to consider that I am in somewhat of a lucky position if things go the way I hope it goes with my custody situation.  My child is young enough to not remember we separate.  This was at the top of my mind when making any decision.   There was a 2 - 3 day period where this guy ghosted my exwife and she even mentioned reconciliation with me.  I'm said "absolutely not".   She is now forced to be committed to this guy or find someone else - which she is also now on dating sites to distract herself from when this guy ignores here for a couple of days.  My reason for this is not a selfish one.  I know her well enough now that she will leave me at any point in our marriage and I ABSOLUTELY cannot let her do this when my child is older.  If she does this to him at 5 years old, I will be so crushed for him.   I am already crushed for him, but this timing is the best at any point.

I agree with you, I personally feel that sooner you leave the better, any time after 5-7 years of age will make it more difficult for your son.  I know you are looking out for your son's best interest in addition to your own.  You are not being selfish, you are being selfless.

You are a strong person Salty because I know what you are doing for the best interest for your kids.  You are strategically making it work so that your kids won't be ruined.  This is also one of the reasons why I am trying to finish off my lease with her.  It's so that when we move, my 3 year old will see us both packing our stuff and moving to different places.   I don't want him to see one of us leave all of a sudden.  I made sure to spend time with him without her and be in my room most of the time.  She sometimes tries to drag me out to an amusement park with him.  I don't want to reopen a wound.  

I am strategically making it work to prevent my children from being 'ruined' any more than they already have, and to do some repair work too, that would not be possible if we separated/divorced.  Circling back to your lease, with your son at 3 y.o. while it will be impactful for your son for a week or two, at that age, all they care about is who is feeding them, and playing with them on play dates.  The longer you wait, the more impactful it will be for him, and you too. 

For me, if this separation is inevitable, this is the time to rip off that badaid as it'll be in the best interest for my baby and also myself.  And she wants it because she is in lala land with this guy.   I told her that if she were to marry him, obviously we have to be fast with our divorce and custody.  She agreessssssssssssssssssssss
Faster the better, do this sooner rather than later, before she figures out she is not into the guy [or the guy is no longer into her], and changes her mind.  If you can afford it, leave before the lease is done, and pay off the few months of your share, or convince her for the new guy to move in, and have him pay it.

Good luck, and take care.

[engiebpd]

[/quote
Faster the better, do this sooner rather than later, before she figures out she is not into the guy [or the guy is no longer into her], and changes her mind.  If you can afford it, leave before the lease is done, and pay off the few months of your share, or convince her for the new guy to move in, and have him pay it.

Good luck, and take care.

[/quote]

I thought of this and will still consider this.   But only until I get some custody orders signed off first.   I am unsure if this will be healthy for our baby.  It may still look like I took off as he is so used to this apartment at the moment.  I asked my family lawyer that after paperwork is done, can I just have this new bf take over my lease.  He said it may still be in my name and that can be disastrous.   I haven't spoken to the leasing office about this yet though. 

But my family lawyer said this may not be in the best interest of my son.   I'm guessing it'll be because my son will all of ansudden see a new man in the apartment that he is used to.    Surely, my son may see me on X days due to custody order.  But how will that affect him in this circumstance.   I was told that it may be best for our son to see that we (ex wife and i) completely move out and be in separate locations as he sees a drastic change and gets used to it

In this case, he will just see a new man in his own apartment.. I'm unsure if it'll be in the best interest in our boy.   My family lawyer knows I am walking on eggshells well and avoiding all fights so he may think this is the best road to take.   

But yes, many people have suggested that I leave after custody is sign but I am unsure of it at the moment because I am thinking, it would be weird for my son to just see another guy in my room. 

[ForeverDad]

I am unsure if this will be healthy for our baby.  It may still look like I took off as he is so used to this apartment at the moment.

There are millions of families that have split apart and/or experienced divorce and those children can/do adapt to changing circumstances.  They're generally not fragile Ming vases.  Any change can impact them but your child has surely been exposed to some discord already, so the largest factor helping them is you maintaining as much contact as possible, so very helpful.

Similarly for moves.  Millions of families move each year.  The kids adapt.  Even transferring back and forth between two separate homes quickly becomes normal, kids are quite adaptable.

You're worrying about the short term impacts, it is the long term status over the years that has more impact.

[kells76]

Hi engiebpd;

Here's another way to look at this situation:

I thought of this and will still consider this.   But only until I get some custody orders signed off first.   I am unsure if this will be healthy for our baby.  It may still look like I took off as he is so used to this apartment at the moment.  I asked my family lawyer that after paperwork is done, can I just have this new bf take over my lease.  He said it may still be in my name and that can be disastrous.   I haven't spoken to the leasing office about this yet though.

But my family lawyer said this may not be in the best interest of my son.   I'm guessing it'll be because my son will all of ansudden see a new man in the apartment that he is used to.    Surely, my son may see me on X days due to custody order.  But how will that affect him in this circumstance.   I was told that it may be best for our son to see that we (ex wife and i) completely move out and be in separate locations as he sees a drastic change and gets used to it

In this case, he will just see a new man in his own apartment.. I'm unsure if it'll be in the best interest in our boy.   My family lawyer knows I am walking on eggshells well and avoiding all fights so he may think this is the best road to take. 

I think I'm reading some assumptions, that:

-->you have to be the one to leave

-->she gets to stay and have the apartment

-->that apartment has to be your son's "real home"

Those are just that -- assumptions, not necessarily "how things must be". Those assumptions may color what you believe is possible or even worth trying. And, assumptions, for a dad in a divorce working out custody, aren't always helpful.

For example, my H's parents divorced when he was very young. Back in those days, the assumption was -- kids live with mom in their "real home" and "visit" dad occasionally at "dad's house" which is not their "real house". And that is what H experienced, so he assumed, many years later, when he and the kids' mom divorced, that:

-he had to move out
-it was mean to make the kids move out of "their real house"
-he had to be nice to Mom and "let her have the house"
-he could only have "visits" with the kids... his own children
-because he worked full time, he couldn't have "full" or "joint" custody... he had to give Mom full custody

These assumptions have been devastating to his relationship with the kids, and aren't true.

engiebpd, what if we challenged some of those assumptions you've shared?

What if she moved out?

Or, what if you had to move out, yet took your son with you?

What if instead of referring to the apartment as "your son's apartment" and imagining that the only path forward was "my son will have to get used to seeing another man in his apartment", we did a powerful reframe:

"After my son and I move out to our own place, my son will get used to spending time both at my house and at Mom's house, whether that's the old apartment or not."

or

"After my son's mom moves out, I will help my son get used to spending time at two houses, and both will be his homes"

...

While I understand that there are logistical hurdles in every divorce (leases and finances are no small issues), I want to encourage you so much at this stage to consider reframing your thinking to be that you are just as important in your son's life as his mom, and you don't have to "be the good guy" by giving up ground to her based on the assumption that "I guess my son has to stay in the apartment, and if his mom and I can't be together, I guess I have to leave". I hope you can understand that that isn't true any more.

We can be here to walk alongside you and help you stay involved, empowered, not giving up ground, and proactive for your son's best interest.

Like ForeverDad says, it's not where your son lives that has to always stay the same -- people move all the time. It's that you never give an inch in standing up for your son's right to have you in his life. I'd suggest that you strongly consider finding an alternative to moving out, letting your son's mom have the apt, and treating it like your son's only true home.

Don't hesitate to run this past your lawyer, and between the group here, and your L, I bet we can come up with some assertive, practical, feasible ways for you to stay a primary parent.

Lots of food for thought,. Really glad to hear that you are prioritizing getting custody orders signed -- smart move 

Keep us posted;

kells76

[Turkish]

My ex moved out of my home (it was only in my name). She moved apartments 4 times in the following 5 years due to... Lack of foresight. It did affect them, but as the others said, a move or 2 is not abnormal. The kids desired to stay with me at first more not due to the home, but that I had been primary caretaker for them for the better part of a year. If you're focused on your kid, he'll be OK. It's hard not to overthink these things.

[engiebpd]

I am getting Intel on how a bpd mind thinks.    Recently, my ex wife was completely being honest about her situation with this new guy.  She openly told me that she wants to "trick" him into marrying her.  She said that he is a insecure so she is going to blow up his ego and tell him how amazing a person he is.

Can you believe this?  This is textbook bpd behavior during idealization phase.   But I've always thought it was their natural bpd behavior.   She's sitting there devising a plan on how to ensure she secures this guy.  

Which means she's probably trying her best with wild sex in order to try to get him pregnant with her.

Btw some interesting news,  my counselor called my psychiatrist to talk about the ex wife.   I went in to see her yesterday and she believes my ex wife is currently on manic behavior and is either bipolar or bpd.    She needs to figure out which it is.

She says she is unsure how my ex wife will respond to these diagnostics and asked me to see if I convince the ex wife to let me go with her to see the psychiatrist.  I asked the psych why she needs me there and she says it's to give higher probability that the ex wife will be truthful.   Apparently the ex wife has been lying to her a lot in their sessions together.  The psych tells me she doesnt know what is true but has a better idea of the situation after talking with the marriage counselor.

Btw, I think I'm split now because I told her that she's leaving me for this guy not because of the things she's been telling her family.  

[SaltyDawg]

Right now you are your ex-wife's "Favorite Person" - she trusts you implicitly with her emotions.  If you go to her psychiatrist [or is it your psychiatrist] with your ex wife - do not let the psychiatrist make a diagnosis [formal, or informal (e.g. you have BPD-like symptoms) with you present, as that may be perceived as a betrayal by your ex wife and you will not longer be gathering valuable intel for you upcoming custody/divorce.  Right now you need to look out for what is best for you.

Perhaps, offer up a compromise, that you will help out your ex wife in this manner after all of the papers you want signed are indeed signed.

A different compromise, if the aforementioned one is not accepted, offer that you will talk to the psychiatrist in a one on one session without the ex wife, and ask you probative questions about her to discern what is going on with your ex wife, request that this conversation not be communicated with the ex wife.

What you shared is incredibly fascinating, I don't even see that level of sharing in the group by borderlines for borderlines - this takes it to the next level - literally.  The hypersexual behavior I thought was to compensate for the 'fear of abandonment' on a primal and instinctual level; however, what you are describing is premeditated entrapment, and is different that the more primal fear of abandonment [I am theorising (educated guessing) as I have not read about abandonment rising to the level of deliberate entrapment] - there may be something else going on there as this is a deliberate behavior versus a subconsciously reactive one in response to the fear of abandonment.  "Wow" is the word that comes to my mind.

[Couscous]

What you shared is incredibly fascinating, I don't even see that level of sharing in the group by borderlines for borderlines - this takes it to the next level - literally.  The hypersexual behavior I thought was to compensate for the 'fear of abandonment' on a primal and instinctual level; however, what you are describing is premeditated entrapment, and is different that the more primal fear of abandonment [I am theorising (educated guessing) as I have not read about abandonment rising to the level of deliberate entrapment] - there may be something else going on there as this is a deliberate behavior versus a subconsciously reactive one in response to the fear of abandonment.  "Wow" is the word that comes to my mind.

I'm thinking that this level of manipulativeness is not connected to normal BPD but is a symptom of having a character disorder, as described here: https://www.drgeorgesimon.com/the-character-disturbance-spectrum/

I was my N/BPD SIL's favorite person for a while during her dramatic breakup with my brother, and she revealed to me the extent to which she was consciously and deliberately attempting to manipulate him. It was quite shocking and I immediately ceased all contact with her when I realized what was going on. 

 

[engiebpd]

She definitely has fear of abandonment with this guy and I see some of that with me still but the worry is not there yet since I am still living with her and she knows I'm still here when she's home.  I mean, we do have a 3 year old together still.  So it hasnt hit her yet.   Unsure what it will be like for her when I actually move out of here.

I see her behavior when affair bf goes no contact for a couple days.   It's very predictable.  She will start asking me to go do things with her like the spa or amusement park with the baby.  I try to avoid all.  She also is more depressed and drinks more when he does avoid her.  She randomly defends him "wow this guy is just so busy, I know he loves me, but he's so busy"

She openly admitted to him she does not like him going in and out of her with communication.  Shes concernee because he is still living with his baby momma (or maybe theyre together and hes also cheating - we dont know at this point).  In fact, she started flirting and kissing a coworker of hers.  

She told me this "since he's been avoiding my texts, I texted him that I am going to hang out with my coworker, and he immediately texts me back"  the guy she's seeing (guy she had affair with on me) is now pissed that she kissed her coworker and started going off on her about how he's been cheated on before and doesn't want that trauma to happen again -_- (my face when hearing this)   She told him it was a meaningless kiss and there is no connection.  

I guess that's okay with him since they're still talking.  My ex wife is very desirable at her work place so it appears that this guy is actually worried he may lose her to somebody else.

Also, now she's again talking about wanting to pay the lease here and moving out because her new man is uncomfortable with her living with me.  

Also I want to reiterate that we are only 5-6 weeks in since our agreed breakup and all this drama is happening.   

[SaltyDawg]

She definitely has fear of abandonment with this guy and I see some of that with me still but the worry is not there yet since I am still living with her and she knows I'm still here when she's home.  I mean, we do have a 3 year old together still.  So it hasnt hit her yet.   Unsure what it will be like for her when I actually move out of here.

My guess is that she will 'loose her stuff' emotionally when she does realize wtf happened.


I see her behavior when affair bf goes no contact for a couple days.   It's very predictable. [...]  She openly admitted to him she does not like him going in and out of her with communication.  

Behavior patterns are usually repeated...


Shes concernee because he is still living with his baby momma (or maybe theyre together and hes also cheating - we dont know at this point).  In fact, she started flirting and kissing a coworker of hers.  

Behavior patterns are usually repeated...  [sounds a bit HPD too]


Also, now she's again talking about wanting to pay the lease here and moving out because her new man is uncomfortable with her living with me.  

Agree to it, once your papers are signed by her, and you notify the landlord once she has paid you.


Also I want to reiterate that we are only 5-6 weeks in since our agreed breakup and all this drama is happening.   

I agree, this is a very short time for all this happening.

Do self-care, do document, and do take care of you & your 3 yo child.

[engiebpd]

I can see why a lot of my friends and family and you guys on BPD forum here advise me to try to find a way to get away from her:

Earlier today she tells me she broke it off with the guy last night.   Apparently they got into a conflict and she got mad at him and she told him great lets break up and I can go with someone else to valentines day.  I think he got pissed or something.   

Throughout the day, she's all "he's in love with me, he'll come back and it'll be all passionate again".    I'm like "ok.." just trying to have a straight normal face on everything she says. 

Later on in the evening, I can tell she's moping about something.   She comes out of her room and says "i get it now, it's your fault".   I said "what's my fault".  She says "it's because of our lack of love in our marriage that i became overly obsessed over this guy and acted crazy on him".  It's as if she forgot he loved bomb her and promised her this amazing life with him.  I told her that's just your opinion and i disagree, but I don't need to talk about this anymore.  She says you can tell this to our counselor but she's probably just going to be on your side about it again.  I'm like, a lot of people will side with me on this one but again, i don't want to talk about it anymore.   She says "this is my opinion and you need to support it".  I'm like "i dont need to support anything, we are divorcing already".

It sounds like if they break up now, she's going to be blaming it on our "loveless marriage".   I dont know if they'll break up because they've been on and off for weeks now.  I hope they dont break up, i need these papers signed!

[Turkish]

It sounds like you've realized your own value. Good.

My ex shared with me early on [boy toy/beau] observed her anger and asked me about it." That was months before I got her to move out.

In the "bro world" I'd have had contacted him and told him to run. He wouldn't have believed me anyway, much as I ignored my own indistinct to run before I had a kid, much less two.  Let it play out. Use it to your advantage.

[ForeverDad]

A phrase I haven't noticed in this thread is that a pwBPD typically craves engagement, even if it is "negative engagement".

At some point (perhaps once you have custody details resolved?) you need to step back from even the reduced amount of current contact.

[engiebpd]

Everything has been okay in the apartment but now I am seeing some physical things.  More cussing even when I am trying to remain calm.  She got so upset this morning over some dirty laundry.  She went on a yelling and cussing rant and while cooking she slammed the pot into the stove and broke it.

I have a voice recorder recording, but I am a little worried this can escalate the more time here.  Any advice?   Thanks

[engiebpd]

ugh for the first time, my recorder didn't work. So weird.

[Couscous]

She’s basically experiencing withdrawal symptoms so it’s not at all surprising that she’s lashing out at you. She’s trying bait you into game of emotional hot potato and if she can succeed in making you feel like sh*t then she will feel better. The problem is that calmer you stay the more agitated she will become.

So what you could do is to pretend to play her game by acting as if you are hurt and feeling defensive, (maybe even pretend to shed a few tears), and then storm out of the house (and stay out for the rest of the day while enjoying some peace and quiet) and see if that might calm her. Yes, this is extremely manipulative, however, desperate times call for desperate measures.

Edit: For more about emotional hot potato (aka the psychological game called Uproar) see this webpage:   https://web.archive.org/web/20201022211854/https://sites.google.com/site/worldeveryone/home/ta-games-using-criticism#

[engiebpd]

My ex has mentioned that I have become like a parent to her.   I'm taking care of most of the chores and the baby and she's sneaking out with her new guy and going out. 

The argument this morning was like I was a parent.  She comes home from work as if nothing happened.   

So I essentially went from hub to best friend to now a parent? 

[ForeverDad]

For those of us when went through the divorce mill and exited (somewhat) intact, our parenting was what really counted over and above everything else.  Often it was a struggle to get as much parenting as we needed.  Document how much parenting you're doing and how little your spouse is doing.  If she sinks her parenting ship, that's on your ex.  With the relationship doomed, accept the added parenting responsibilities as a Gift.

I remember once, just once, a dad complaining the ex often backed out of exchanges and failed to take the children.  My reply was, "Don't complain! Although it may frustrate your plans, Accept the Gift of additional parenting time."

[SaltyDawg]

So what you could do is to pretend to play her game by acting as if you are hurt and feeling defensive, (maybe even pretend to shed a few tears), and then storm out of the house (and stay out for the rest of the day while enjoying some peace and quiet) and see if that might calm her. Yes, this is extremely manipulative, however, desperate times call for desperate measures.

If you are recording for possible courtroom drama, I advise against any kind of 'play acting' - anything you say and do can be used against you in a court.  Remain calm, cool, and collected no matter how irrational they become while recording.

In addition to your audio recorder, use your cellphone to record too. 

If you have an android phone this is what I do to document with a date/time stamp video recording
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=354091.msg13181755#msg13181755

[engiebpd]

How do psychiatrist diagnose bpd or bipolar?   My exwife has been prescribed with Lamictal.  She's been on it for 2 days and she has been telling me that it has been helping her with her emotions.

When I spoke with the psychiatrist, she says she can't tell if it's bipolar, bipolar 2 or bpd or a mix of any.   If the prescription works for my ex wife, does that mean she is bipolar?


The only thing my psychiatrist said is that bipolar, there are meds but none for bpd.     Apparently, in order for bpd to be improved is through therapy and dbt.   

I'm actually very curious if  she is bipolar or bpd.   

Updates:   she got into a fight with her new guy and he is not talking to her atm.    She is telling me she still loves him but thinks he is a dick now. I'm slightly concerned as we just barely received the respondent side to sign the divorce paperwork that includes the 50/50 everything agreement.   

After that is signed (she would need to) we would then proceed to negotiate the details within the 50/50.. custody, physical, location.

I was hoping this guy would still be with her at this period so she is less focused on the paperwork and more on him.   

I did see her reading the email from our mediator last night so I'm unsure if she plans to send it to people like her family to look at it.  Man I just want to get this over with without a fight

Also, if she is actually bipolar instead of bpd, how different is my situation??  Thanks guys!

[cranmango]

How do psychiatrist diagnose bpd or bipolar?   My exwife has been prescribed with Lamictal.  She's been on it for 2 days and she has been telling me that it has been helping her with her emotions.

When I spoke with the psychiatrist, she says she can't tell if it's bipolar, bipolar 2 or bpd or a mix of any.   If the prescription works for my ex wife, does that mean she is bipolar?

Ideally, a diagnosis of BPD or Bipolar would be made using a comprehensive diagnostic interview, plus monitoring of symptoms over a period of weeks/months. I am not a psychiatrist, but my understanding is that the therapeutic effects of Lamictal (for Bipolar Disorder) typically take a few weeks to kick in. Any effects within the first couple days are likely to be placebo.

In Bipolar Disorder, the mood episodes tend to last weeks/months. In episodes of mania there are often very high energy levels, no sleep, rapid talking, delusions of grandeur, and dangerous behavior (drug use, excessive spending, risky sex, etc). And there are typically also episodes of depression.

In BPD, the mood episodes tend to last hours/days, and are often triggered by interpersonal conflict. You might see some of the same self-destructive behaviors (drug use, risky sex, etc). But the behaviors are fueled by different factors. In Bipolar Disorder, the dangerous behaviors are typically very out of character for the person, and only occur during a mood episode. In BPD, the dangerous behaviors are in character for the person, and are often driven by a frantic effort to cope with sadness, anxiety, fear, etc.

You are right that there are no officially approved medications for BPD. Anti-depressant and anti-anxiety medications can sometimes take the edge off of symptoms, but typically the 'core problems' remain. Whereas in Bipolar Disorder, mood stabilizers can be very effective in preventing the mood episodes from coming back.

[ForeverDad]

You are right that there are no officially approved medications for BPD. Anti-depressant and anti-anxiety medications can sometimes take the edge off of symptoms, but typically the 'core problems' remain. Whereas in Bipolar Disorder, mood stabilizers can be very effective in preventing the mood episodes from coming back.

Sitting here in my armchair, my two cents worth is that I usually describe that Bipolar is typically a chemical imbalance of some sort that meds can address.

With Borderline, meds may moderate behaviors for a time - until the side effects are claimed to be a reason to stop them - but the real solution (well, if there is one the person will stick with) is focused and applied therapy such as DBT, CBT or similar.  Of course many with apparent BPD resist serious therapy, use it to pose as improving, or claim they were quickly fixed.  And you can't do it for them since BPD is a disorder most evident in close relationships and hence your efforts won't succeed because of your closeness or even be sabotaged.

[engiebpd]

I see a split often throughout the week.   She will be angry with me for chiming in on something she says and will hate me.   Then a few hours later after a break, she comes back talking to me as if nothing happened.   Again, sharing all her information, sharing everything on her mind.  I am a parent to her...

She signed the respondent paperwork it turns out.  On it states we are joint and physical custody.   Next step will be detailing out the custody plans.   A slight relief for me this week, but the custody plan and judgement is key coming up.   I just want my boy to be safe.     

It should now be hard for her to fight for more than 50/50 so I think she won't at this point.  It sounds like her inital agreement is coming together, but we will see.  Now I just need to make sure my boy remains within same school and close to his drs, speech therapist etc.

I want her to be within proximity to ease my boy when we do move apart, but we will see.

Her guy is back.  He ditched her for a week during Valentines Day and all of a sudden called her and talked her back into his web.  He is stringing her along and is likely wanting sex now and sadly she's falling for it.   I can't talk to her about that even though I can see right through everything.    Any negative talk about that situation will result in a split.    I guess I should be glad he's back at least until the judgement is signed.

After doing some reading online, I read in a couple places where psychiatrists rather diagnose Bipolar even if they suspect bpd because apparently insurance drops diagnose bpd patients and its difficult for bpders to get help.

The split and the situational emotions she's going through is what makes me believe it's more bpd than bipolar.   I read on some reddit threads about bpders taking Lamictal and it has done wonders for them apparently.

Thanks guys for your continual replies.

[engiebpd]

I walked into her room and she has a self help notebook.  On it, she wrote some paragraphs about the need to love herself.

I didn't want to go through her stuff but I quickly glanced. 

She has said this many times when we talked "I have to love myself".

I am reading online about bpders and how they hate themselves.  I kind of don't understand what this means.

What do you guys think about why she is writing in her journal or self help book about the need to love herself?   

Is there some kind of guilt going on with her?   Are these signs of suicidal thoughts?

[SaltyDawg]

She has said this many times when we talked "I have to love myself".

This is something that she may have learned in therapy or the psych and has stuck in her mind - this is a good thing for her.  It is likely 'positive self-talk' so she can learn to self-sooth and start to love herself.


I am reading online about bpders and how they hate themselves.  I kind of don't understand what this means.

This may be true, it is more of a shame element.  However, if there is self-love, there could be a narcissistic component to it as well.


Is there some kind of guilt going on with her?   

Possibly, part of the 'shame' component if she is self-aware of the crap she is doing.


Are these signs of suicidal thoughts?

Unlikely.  She is likely trying to do the primary suggestion for self-care.  Self-love is the opposite of suicide.  On all 6 of my wife suicide attempts, my wife indicated to me on the majority of those occasions that she told me that she 'did NOT love' herself.  I know her T's worked on helping her learn 'self love' after the most recent suicide attempt, so, do be on the lookout for anything out of the norm.  The mere fact that you are asking this question tells me that your gut is telling you something is amiss.  Do follow your 'gut' feeling on this.

[Couscous]

I am reading online about bpders and how they hate themselves.  I kind of don't understand what this means.

I thought this did an excellent job explaining it: https://www.mcleanhospital.org/sites/default/files/2021-03/MH-Webinar-Self-loathing-WebinarFINAL.pdf

[Turkish]

A pwBPD has an "inflated false self." A recovered pwBPD on Quora explained it like, "i felt like my emotions and feelings don't matter; therefore, I don't matter and am unlovable." <-- explains easy invalidation.

Now 41 and 9 years gone, my ex posts things on FB, Instagram and recently on LinkedIn that to me are cringeworthy... like stuart smalley auto validations presented as coaching. I'll give her credit for self-work. I'm from a different generation, too. You don't telegraph that stuff or seek public validation. But if it helps her cope, more power to her.

She left several journals when she left and she wrote things then that sounded similar.

I was bullied, often badly, as a kid,  and raised my a mother with BPD. I've been depressed and even felt unlovable. Yet i can't comprehend feeling empty, nor no one liking me that I have to mirror them due to no sense of self (not to say that i haven't engaged in unhealthy coping mechanisms). The whole "self work" thing taken to an extreme i can't understand. She also devours self-improvement books and social media.

I can't help but think that this is how extremely dysfunctional parents raise a child and it's sad.

[Emaanbillah]

Ideally, a diagnosis of BPD or Bipolar would be made using a comprehensive diagnostic interview, plus monitoring of symptoms over a period of weeks/months. I am not a psychiatrist, but my understanding is that the therapeutic effects of Lamictal (for Bipolar Disorder) typically take a few weeks to kick in. Any effects within the first couple days are likely to be placebo.

In Bipolar Disorder, the mood episodes tend to last weeks/months. In episodes of mania there are often very high energy levels, no sleep, rapid talking, delusions of grandeur, and dangerous behavior (drug use, excessive spending, risky sex, etc). And there are typically also episodes of depression.

In BPD, the mood episodes tend to last hours/days, and are often triggered by interpersonal conflict. You might see some of the same self-destructive behaviors (drug use, risky sex, etc). But the behaviors are fueled by different factors. In Bipolar Disorder, the dangerous behaviors are typically very out of character for the person, and only occur during a mood episode. In BPD, the dangerous behaviors are in character for the person, and are often driven by a frantic effort to cope with sadness, anxiety, fear, etc.

You are right that there are no officially approved medications for BPD. Anti-depressant and anti-anxiety medications can sometimes take the edge off of symptoms, but typically the 'core problems' remain. Whereas in Bipolar Disorder, mood stabilizers can be very effective in preventing the mood episodes from coming back.

Pretty well summed up. I would only add that typical cases of mania usually have an element of elevated/irritable mood accompanied with hyperactivity. There is also a cognitive element wherein patient's speech becomes more rapid, unable to be interrupted indicating racing thoughts.

[engiebpd]

Her gaslighting is soooo annoying.   I cannot stand it.   I do whatever it takes not to bite or get upset by it.   But it is sooo annoying. 

I feel like she knows that her gas lighting gets to my head.   Yesterday she started calling me names, then says I threw a tantrum from it when I just went out to walk the dog.

It sometimes makes me want to use the same tactics on her just to piss her off but I don't.  How do you guys deal with this chronic gaslighting?   

[SaltyDawg]

Her gaslighting is soooo annoying.   I cannot stand it.   I do whatever it takes not to bite or get upset by it.   But it is sooo annoying. 

I feel like she knows that her gas lighting gets to my head.   Yesterday she started calling me names, then says I threw a tantrum from it when I just went out to walk the dog.

It sometimes makes me want to use the same tactics on her just to piss her off but I don't.  How do you guys deal with this chronic gaslighting?   

For my uBPDw's gaslighting I used a two-pronged approach - the first is to use 'radical acceptance', and the 2nd is to triangulate our couple's therapist to assist in setting up firm boundaries for 'gaslighting' being unacceptable behavior.

I used to be reactive in my abuse to her [e.g. 'use the same tactics on her'] and that only escalates the situation unless you become more crazy than her.

I'll first talk about 'radical acceptance' which can be found here on 'BPD family' under topic 1.06:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329744.0

One of the components of my version of radical acceptance is to pre-forgive, in essence, I know the reality of my situation is that my wife will eventually transgress against me in the form of gas lighting when she is splitting me black. Since I know this to be a fact [based on historical patterns], I know this is going to happen again, as long as I know that she is not deliberately doing this, and I see that she is being triggered by external forces; therefore, I have already forgiven her for what she does not know that she is about to do. That's what makes it radical.

Part of radical acceptance is "Once individuals can accept reality [with forgiveness] while simultaneously not approving of it is when change can be made" and I have added forgiving her in the accepted part of reality, even though I do not approve of her actions and will state as much when it is happening to me.

In essence I have mentally compartmentalized my wife's bad behavior as being attributable to her mental state of mind, and she is 'not guilty by reason of insanity' literally, and that is how I treat it when she splits gaslights me [splitting me black].

Now I am going to talk about setting up boundaries with love - specifically a boundary to limit the amount of emotional/verbal abuse that I am receiving.

The first boundary I set up was against physical violence - if she hits me or kicks me, the authorities will be called which is endorsed by the T - kind of severe, but it is effective.  Only one incident occurred since this boundary was setup.  My wife immediately recognized it and apologized for it, so it was only brought up in couples therapy - as 'self-sabotaging' type behavior and was not escalated to 911.

The second is to establish that emotional/verbal abuse will not be tolerated.  I have shared the issues that my wife was aware of with her T, her T did an excellent job in having my wife modify that behavior.  Now that all of my wife's self-aware issues have been addressed, now the trick is to get her to address the issues that she is not self-aware of.

Right now, I am at a point where all of the 'low hanging' therapy fruit has been picked, now I am going after the higher fruit that my wife is not aware of, and the therapy is getting rougher and more difficult - it may not last.  Currently, this is a stalled work-in-progress.  Because of jury duty, and the T's planned vacation, this has been frustratingly 'on-hold' for the past two weeks where the last session ended with a 'blow up'.

I am being patient, and do want the progress to resume; however, a large part of navigating this is to employ a neutral 3rd party to resolve this issue in the form of our couples therapist.

Every case will be different; however, I have shared what has been working in my specific scenario.  Hopefully this is helpful to you.

Take Care.

[kells76]

Hi engiebpd;

Her gaslighting is soooo annoying.   I cannot stand it.   I do whatever it takes not to bite or get upset by it.   But it is sooo annoying. 

I feel like she knows that her gas lighting gets to my head.   Yesterday she started calling me names, then says I threw a tantrum from it when I just went out to walk the dog.

It sometimes makes me want to use the same tactics on her just to piss her off but I don't.  How do you guys deal with this chronic gaslighting?   

It is really annoying. It's so tempting to want to "set the record straight", yet it's hard knowing that even a full explanation of the facts won't stick with her and won't make things better. The "not in touch with reality" part of BPD is extremely difficult to deal with -- you could literally show her a video of what happened and that wouldn't matter, because what's most important to her is her desperation to get her extremely deep and intense emotional needs met.

...

What's your timeline right now on divorce/custody? I think I'm remembering that paperwork is in process -- do you have some specific deadlines coming up?

Might be helpful to get some dates on your calendar, so you know that this won't last forever, and you can just buckle down for the next X days for your kid's sake, then be done.

[engiebpd]

First, thank you salty.  I took your advice well and addressed her verbal abuse in therapy and to my surprised she admitted it and apologized.  It's been 4 days since that therapy and she hasn't verbally abused me.   Her gaslighting does seem strange though.  I am reading and understanding that it's not intentionally to hurt me in anyway so I am doing what ever it takes to take a step back and just view it as this (and a friend told me this)  "imagine you're in an insane asylum watching this person locked up and when they see you, they do nothing but constantly berate you and say the meanest things.  You should know that they are "insane" so you shouldn't have any anger towards it.  

This extreme example is what I try to keep in mind when she does this.   But it is awfully hard because she looks like a normal person and it comes every now and then.    

Hi engiebpd;

It is really annoying. It's so tempting to want to "set the record straight", yet it's hard knowing that even a full explanation of the facts won't stick with her and won't make things better. The "not in touch with reality" part of BPD is extremely difficult to deal with -- you could literally show her a video of what happened and that wouldn't matter, because what's most important to her is her desperation to get her extremely deep and intense emotional needs met.

...

What's your timeline right now on divorce/custody? I think I'm remembering that paperwork is in process -- do you have some specific deadlines coming up?

Might be helpful to get some dates on your calendar, so you know that this won't last forever, and you can just buckle down for the next X days for your kid's sake, then be done.

Okay so here's the news on my paperwork.   We have BOTH signed with the mediator regarding the divorce filing at 50/50.  My mediator was absolutely shocked that she signed and sent it in the night it was given to her.   (It was when she was in limerance)

The next step is the financial portion of the mediation process and she has been lagging on this part.   I can tell it's mainly because it looks like a school project and she is putting it off.   But we need this done to then move to the judgement signing, which should seal the deal on everything.  

Here's the problem though,  her bf broke it off and went no contact just as you all warned me about.  When she was in liminerence, she didn't care about anything.   Now all of a sudden she's back helping out with the baby and assisting with cleaning our place.   I'm a little disappointed this happened before the judgement signing but I guess I have to roll with the punches.

My mediator has told me to nudge her and she (mediator) will do it as well as the financial portion is a requirement.  

Tonight I told her that we need to complete this part so that we can be free and "you can be happy without me".   She now is processing that she won't be with this new guy and is now asking me to help support her or give her child support.  PLEASE READ me.    But at least I know it'll be tough for her to get this as she already signed the divorce filing 50/50.    

But it appears she's concerned about her financial situation when we are apart.   I told her I will help her out as much as I can but we need to get this done so we can move on.

She's says "okay" but can I get it in writing that you'll help me.  I said no.   But I will help you in any way I can because you are the mother of my child and I don't want to see you get buried.   I told her that I willl take care of our boy with his sports and everything that he ventures into and I will give her cash if I can.   She kinda doesn't believe me but genuinely I will in the long run.

But the fact that she's now asking for child support concerns me a bit guys.  What you guys wrote earlier in this thread has been so effin dead on.  I still wish she was still in lumerance with this guy.   Now she's actually processing her bad upcoming situation.

I'm going to call the mediator up tomorrow and tell her my concerns now but what do you guys think?  

If she tries to go for more custody to get more child support it'll cost her lawyers fees.  Which doesnt seem to be in her cards.   I am doing what ever it takes to convince her that I have her back after we separate but I don't want to promise her any specific # or figures.  

What do you guys think of my situation now that Mr. Wonderful has left her?  Now all a sudden she wants some custody $....ughhhh

[SaltyDawg]

First, thank you salty.  I took your advice well and addressed her verbal abuse in therapy and to my surprised she admitted it and apologized.  It's been 4 days since that therapy and she hasn't verbally abused me.

You are welcome.  One more word of advice on the reduction of verbal/emotional abuse.  Initially my wife was in compliance once she was stung with the slap of the boundary that our T put in place, and then like a small child, she tested the new boundary, please be prepared for it to return, do not let your guard down with a false sense of security that she actually has stopped this behavior for good.  It will return, it is a matter of when.  Be prepared to re-address this in therapy.  Do not give an inch on this new boundary or it will become meaningless.


Her gaslighting does seem strange though.  I am reading and understanding that it's not intentionally to hurt me in anyway so I am doing what ever it takes to take a step back and just view it as this (and a friend told me this)  "imagine you're in an insane asylum watching this person locked up and when they see you, they do nothing but constantly berate you and say the meanest things.  You should know that they are "insane" so you shouldn't have any anger towards it.  

A pwBPD gaslighting is a 'coping mechanism' for them.  They are telling themselves, and anyone who will listen, this is their distorted [to the point of being false] narrative, as they cannot accept the fact it is they themselves that are doing this terrible behavior.  Video/audio recordings, even if you are the only one reviewing them and it doesn't escalate, will reveal that you are not the crazy one.


This extreme example is what I try to keep in mind when she does this.   But it is awfully hard because she looks like a normal person and it comes every now and then.    
It gets easier to do with time.  I just think to myself, with a neutral face on, "here we go again, she's losing it, she is painting me 'black' and everything coming out of her mouth this point forward is a distortion of her truth".  Basically, I put up a mental shield, and it no longer hurts like it used to.


Congrats on the 50/50 custody arrangement. 

Regarding financial mediation:  I haven't been there, I am watching what you, and others have learned; however, I will share my thoughts...

The financial portion, you may have to do the legwork.  If you do the taxes, it is tax season (here in the US), and if you guys file jointly, offer to do the taxes for her.  Get access to all of her accounts, document everything (she has in those accounts if you can), figure out her income vs yours, if it is comparable, then likely no alimony/child support.

However, if there is a difference between your incomes, I am assuming you are making significantly more than she is.  Instead of paying her directly, consider putting this in writing, that you will pay for your child's educational expenses, your child's clothing, setting up a 529 college plan, etc. that way you take care of your child, and keep the $$$'s out of her impulsive hands and you know the money is spent on your child and not her vices to the detriment of your child and with the college plan you get the tax benefits.

If she refuses, perhaps considering sweetening the deal with paying for security deposit and 1+ months worth of rent, a one time payment, so she will not be a burden do you when you re-enter the dating scene some time after the divorce.  Or consider putting in writing that you will give her cash up to a time period mutually agreed upon.  Whatever your agreement is, make sure that it is limited and won't balloon with COLA and other unforeseen expenses.  I did something similar for my uBPD/NPDexgf and I had no bio kids with her.


She kinda doesn't believe me but genuinely I will in the long run.

I know this is the way you feel now; however, if and when you re-enter the dating scene paying money to your ex may be perceived in a negative light by the new gf unless it is court ordered.  However, if you ensure that all of the monies are directed to your son this will be seen more positively.  The new gf, who us now my uBPDw, shut down such support to the uBPD/NPDexgf and was very upset when I paid the uBPD/NPDexgf's bail when her uBPD behavior landed her there, so her bio kids wouldn't suffer.

I know you are a caretaker, otherwise you wouldn't make those financial offers.  However, you need to look out for your best interest, and that means limiting your losses in this situation, and minimizing your financial obligations moving forward.

For the rest of the comments, I will defer to FD as he has a wealth of information.

Take care with self-care.

[kells76]

But it appears she's concerned about her financial situation when we are apart.   I told her I will help her out as much as I can but we need to get this done so we can move on.

She's says "okay" but can I get it in writing that you'll help me.  I said no.   But I will help you in any way I can because you are the mother of my child and I don't want to see you get buried.   I told her that I willl take care of our boy with his sports and everything that he ventures into and I will give her cash if I can.   She kinda doesn't believe me but genuinely I will in the long run.

I think I'm seeing some leverage here.

If you need to wrap up the financial side of mediation, and she's dragging her feet, and you've already decided that you'd be OK with covering sports fees, and she wants that in writing --

(check with your L first, and if your L says OK, then)

offer to her you will include in writing something like "engiebpd will cover 100% of Little Engiebpd's sports and/or extracurricular fees, provided the sports/extracurriculars are agreed upon by both parents in writing or email, until Little Engiebpd reaches age 18 or graduates from high school, whichever comes later. engiebpd will pay the fees directly to the school or organization." (make sure to run whatever wording you use past your L, so you don't get stuck with bad verbiage/loopholes)

as long as she signs by Day/Date. If she doesn't sign by Day/Date then that will not be included in the deal in writing.

Might be a win-win.

[ForeverDad]

Also, school will be an issue... who will be responsible for school?  Sounds like he is kindergarten age.  Don't get excluded from school.  And if you end up paying some or all school bills, make sure you are only liable for typical public school expenses.  Why?  One dad here agreed to pay all school expenses and then the mother surprised him by enrolling the kid in a private school with predictably high tuition fees.  The court told dad, "You agreed to pay for school expenses so pay them!"

[engiebpd]

Hi All,

Based on the things I've been telling you about my ex unpbd ( but diagnosed bipolar),   it seems you guys suspect that I am her favorite person since she is emotionally opened to me about her personal life and also she splits on me.

I am trying to figure out still if this is true or if she is trying to be nice to me for a reason.   Reasons maybe that I am able to care for our son while she's out or if maybe it could be due to just her playing a role until the divorce finalizes.


If she is ill, I can see favorites person being possible.   But all of a sudden, she has been more nicer to me ever since her affair lover and the guy she's dating has been less committed.   

It's hard for me to distinguish.   

I saw a YouTube video where a girl said its possible to have a favorite person and also a lover as well.   It sounds like I may be in this situation and then I am switch to the main person since her dating life is not all she thought it would he so far...

Am I her "favorite" person?   Sometimes I don't think I am

[ForeverDad]

Since you share children, it may be that you'll always be on her back burner simmering just in case (a stove analogy) for all the times her other life hits a speed bump.

So her perception of you may vary from evil incarnate to a renewed love.  One explanation is that BPD behaviors may moderate with distance apart.  That's why you being closer to her in a marriage faced the full brunt of them while those on the periphery of her life merely noticed something 'off' about her with occasional flare ups.

[engiebpd]

Goodness Foreverdad, you seem to nail it on the spot.  It sure does seem that way. She has mentioned that she thinks we will be closer and better when we are apart - less fighting, less toxic enviroment, good friends "coparenting partners"

It's as if she is aware of something.   She has been drastically nicer right now ever since our last counseling session where she apologized for being abusive.  But I am unsure of anything because she has been putting off on the financial documents of the mediation.  Also, her affair partner blocked her # but calls her middle of the night occasionally but she doesn't pick up.  She says she calls him the next morning but her # is still blocked.  Then she calls him from a restricted # and he doesn't pick up.   -still amazes me that she tells me all these things.

She tries to come up with a positive reason why that's happening and it annoys me.  She says "I think he still loves me and misses me which is why he calls me middle of the night"

Imo he's just tugging on the string and is not picking up normal hours because he is probably still in a relationship with his babymomma but who knows.  Its all speculatio at this point and I don't even have the time to think about this stuff and told her I don't want to hear about this guy again. .  But she sometimes wants my opinion on the matter..........so weird and off indeed.

 So the 2nd guy she was dating since affair partner has been out of the picture (she says she's not physically attractedto him but he makes good $), she pushed him out a little recently because he's also dating someone else and she didnt like that and got into an argument with him about it.    He says he has been hanging out with the other girl for 9 months and can't just throw her out for my ex wife since he only been seeing my ex for 3 weeks or so.   So she's in a limbo with no victims in hand - and I can't tell if this is why she has been nicer to me.

She is likely talking to family and they are worried about the mediation process perhaps - they don't know about her affair and pregnancy.   I think they only believe she dislikes me for not being a "loving & affectionate enough husband" and whatever she is saying about me.  But they are going to support her through this. 

So I'm still not sure of the future at this point and I still have a little bit of anxiety.  I need the financial documents submitted to the mediator and then proceed to the judgement with both of us signed for anything to clear.   

Though the mediator did tell me that the divorce has been filed and the 6 month clock has been started.  That's one relief. 

I have to stick around with her until October and I am still a little nervous about our 3 year old who will be about 3.5 when we do separate in different locations.

[Couscous]

Why do you have to stick around if you have already come to an agreement on custody? You can also get temporary orders if need be.

[ForeverDad]

Perhaps you can start a new topic (thread) focusing on status of parenting your child, about 3 years old now.

She's willing to do 50/50 parenting, on paper at least.  (Around here that's a bit surprising since many Borderline mothers are very possessive of their children, some fanatically so.)

Historically, who has done the most parenting thus far?  I ask because there is a relatively small percentage of mothers that are more concerned about their adult relationships than with parenting their children.  You don't speak much of the actual parenting so I'm curious.  If she is more preoccupied with her adult life then after the divorce she may gift away even more of her parenting.  Considering that her life is disordered and surely would impact the child to some extent, that's not a bad thing for you to shoulder more of parenting responsibilities.

[engiebpd]

We have the divorce filings signed and on it had a custody order sheet with 50/50 that she signed.

But my mediator and some family attorney advisors said that the judgement orders is what matters most and said I shouldn't make a move before that gets signed.    We both need to turn in financial  paperwork and then it gets process and then we move towards signing the judgement.  At this point, I've turned mine in and she has been delaying.   It looks like it's because she's talking to family or someone about the situation.  She might be worried because she makes a lot of cash tips that she may be storing in another bank.

From my understanding so far, the divorce filings is strong for me but might not be the nail in the coffin yet?

I've been documenting and taking pictures with my care for the baby m-w and Saturday and shared Sundays.   we also have daycare m-f.  There are many times where she would make excuses on her days and asks me to care for him.   I also documented nights she has gone out late, stayed out late to party etc.  

I take pictures of my baby everywhere I take him pretty much.

[engiebpd]

She also may not want to reveal the way she spends her money.  Which has been on botox, lip injection and $300 on her nails every week.  

Also Foreverdad,  according to my family and close friends who are much wiser than me, they said she's behaving as if she may leave the baby as well.   The signs according to them are when she was in lala land with affair partner.  She completely neglected the baby for like 2-3 week period and did 0 chores.   They believe that when she actually lives by herself or if she has a new bf, the baby may become too much for her to handle and she may just throw him off more to me.

I have read some articles of borderline mothers leaving their children but I guess it's too early to tell right now.

She has not taken the baby anywhere fun especially without me because I can tell it will be too much for her to handle. 

Lately she has been good to the baby at home but has not taken him to anywhere including the mall ever since our separation.  She's been telling me to go with her and the baby to an amusement park but I've said no and that she can just take the baby.  She hasn't yet.

[Turkish]

Keep doing what you're doing. My ex acted very much like your stbxw, childish, neglecting the kids (phoning it in as a mother), staying out late... unless she contests it, the court is likely to sign off, happy not to have you two show up in front of a judge.

I only called her out once when she returned from a tryst at 5AM. Really? While I'm home with our 1 and 3 year old? She looked like a scolded child.

It may be frustrating and painful to see her act like a "teen mom" as I used to think. Yet it isn't your job to teach her Mothering. Get that legal stipulation signed by her and the court and go from there. If she's holding up on financial disclosures, see if you can do that later (I don't know) after securing custody.

FWIW, my ex did better patenting after she moved out, and much better after she divorced her Beau though that took a few more years.

[ForeverDad]

Please, let us encourage you and lend you strength.  Right now life is distressing and surely topsy turvy.  Here's a quote from my quotable quotes post over in "Stump the Experts (off topic)" board.

Valerie Bowman, "The Untamed Earl", chapter 3, page 33
Owen..."Yes, but apparently, my father has decided that I must be the martyr who marries the chit."
"She does have an impeccable lineage," Claringdon said.
Owen arched a brow at him. "So does my horse. I don't want to marry it."

Valerie Bowman, "Kiss Me at Christmas", chapter 20, pages 140-141
"When I was a child, I asked my mother whom I should marry one day. ...
'My girl,' she said, 'It's quite simple. You must marry the man you cannot live without.' "

Some day you will come across a mentally healthy woman who will be "someone you cannot live without".  Until that time focus on getting through this rough patch, being a reasonably good parent and taking care of yourself!