5.05 | Relationship recycling [romantic partners]

[Mirielle]

Overstepping Conventional Boundaries/Boundary Busting/Using you (54%*) - Inappropriate post relations boundary breaking is common in dissolved relationships with a person suffering from BPD. People with BPD may overstep the conventional boundaries by asking for friendship, favors, validation, even sex after having disengaged from the relationship themselves.

This is rough and we can easily mistake this as another attempt to recycle. This can be very misleading, confusing, and even cruel to the former partner. Recognizing that this occurs and being hypervigilant about maintaining conventional post relationship boundaries is important.  It's might be emotionally hard to do - but it is important - don't get used - don't let your self respect slip any further.  If the person truly wants to get back - give it very careful consideration -and go slow. If your partner wants to jump back in right where you left off its a bad sign.

People with BPD are known to overstep personal boundaries in relationships and it stands to reason that they would do so post relationship. The motivations for the person with BPD are often selfishness and insensitivity rather than maliciousness.  Our hurt is all the same.

Percentages reference

I wanted to isolate this point. Looking back at my breakup/makeup relationship with BPDxbf, I believe breaking down boundaries is a way I was broken down for repeated future attempts, completely at his convenience. I was weak in the beginning, and probably a perfect target: recovering from divorce, recovering from infertility treatment failure (that alone can leave you a mess, and very vulnerable). I wish I understood BPD earlier in the relationship because I believe I could have saved myself so much anguish. To quote my BPDxbf: "Why do you think God allowed Hilter to continue as long as he did?" There's a level of insanity in this question but it's an interesting metaphor: how were so many brilliant, beautiful, talented people brought down by this madman? How were we seduced into the madness? What kept us hanging on? What keeps us searching for answers?

Somehow I believe, speaking of my own situation, I was broken down slowly and methodically so my level of acceptance for unacceptable treatment made me weaker and weaker. Like brain-washing. Before the previous wound was healed, he was at my doorstep again. Thus I remained in a constant weakened state.

At the breakdown of the relationship this LAST time (I'm emphasizing that for myself, really), I set some very clear boundaries/sets of rules and he has violated almost every one I can think of. It's like he's still thumbing his nose at my weak boundaries, challenging: "what are you going to do about it?" Many were unenforceable. He has behaved heinously, enough that to any other person I would come at them screaming "what is wrong with you?" I'm sure he'd like that. The solution appears to be a phantom toll-booth reaction which is to do the opposite; it's the only way out. Reacting shows I still care, one way or another, and I do believe the opposite of love is not hate. It's ambivalence to the point of not even acknowleging him at all.

I do feel sorry for him: I know his illness has roots in his father's behavior toward him and his father's relationship with others. His father is dead; he can't be questioned to his motives and BPDxbf will never find the final acceptance from his father, which is what he seems to have kept running after his whole life. And pardon me for this one, but using God to break down my self esteem is, well, a cheap shot. ("God must have deemed you unworthy... ."

[ozzanoid24]

i guess where does it fall when they break up with you, a year goes by,and then dont even attempt to contact you after a year

[DAS]

i guess where does it fall when they break up with you, a year goes by,and then dont even attempt to contact you after a year

See the advice I got :

noone that I have loved ever thought I was important enough to "try again"

Recycling is generally not a good quality.  It is about poor relationship/break-up boundaries.

The recycling is messy.  It's about insecurities or not knowing what you want. I'm not so sure it equates to love.

  It's not really something to aspire to. The reengagement is not about "love".

[Matt]

i guess where does it fall when they break up with you, a year goes by,and then dont even attempt to contact you after a year

See the advice I got :

noone that I have loved ever thought I was important enough to "try again"

Recycling is generally not a good quality.  It is about poor relationship/break-up boundaries.

The recycling is messy.  It's about insecurities or not knowing what you want. I'm not so sure it equates to love.

  It's not really something to aspire to. The reengagement is not about "love".

Yeah;  I think it can even be kind of an insult.  "Hi, you remember how we struggled and broke up?  Well I'm thinking, I'm feeling down without you and I bet we haven't learned anything.  So maybe we could do it one more time and repeat the cycle again.  How about tonight?"

[fogbound]

This has been a superb thread and should be on a continuous loop presenting once or twice a day.

Thank you all

[Auspicious]

I think what makes it so hard for me to stop "recycling" - if indeed that's what I've been doing - is the knowledge (reasonably sure - I'm more confident about it than many other things that I "know" that what drives the breakups or bad spells is mental disorder.

Because if something is driven by disorder, then there is always the possibility that upon, ah, re-ordering, that things will get better. That possibility is especially tantalizing when the person in question is your wife of many years, and the mother of your children.

So I don't think it's quite as simple as just hoping foolishly that a leopard will not have spots. I think it's more like hoping that a person who coughs on you all the time might eventually stop (or diminish) the coughing, with proper treatment.

[Matt]

I think what makes it so hard for me to stop "recycling" - if indeed that's what I've been doing - is the knowledge (reasonably sure - I'm more confident about it than many other things that I "know" that what drives the breakups or bad spells is mental disorder.

Because if something is driven by disorder, then there is always the possibility that upon, ah, re-ordering, that things will get better. That possibility is especially tantalizing when the person in question is your wife of many years, and the mother of your children.

So I don't think it's quite as simple as just hoping foolishly that a leopard will not have spots. I think it's more like hoping that a person who coughs on you all the time might eventually stop (or diminish) the coughing, with proper treatment.

I think your situation is pretty different from what Skip is describing as "recycling".  You are very conscious of the issues, very educated about them, and making very deliberate decisions as to how to do your best to make the relationship work.

I think what characterizes the dysfunctional dance of "relationship recycling" is the mystical belief that "this time it will be different" - keep trying to make something work that isn't working, with no big changes.

[myself]

I think that a good rule of thumb, is that if they cannot articulate WHY they left you in the first place, in a way that makes sense to someone else besides you (because you could be in denial), then you have to face the real possibility that they don't understand why they left you and they are only compelled to repeat (ie, recycle) their behavior.  People who are mentally ill might do the same things over and over again, each time expecting a different outcome. 

What about when it is a situation where the person with BPD blames the other for everything, making it up all as it were out of mental illness, believes their own story, and tells it to others as if it is the truth? They are articulating it, but... .It's false.

[Auspicious]

I think that a good rule of thumb, is that if they cannot articulate WHY they left you in the first place, in a way that makes sense to someone else besides you (because you could be in denial), then you have to face the real possibility that they don't understand why they left you and they are only compelled to repeat (ie, recycle) their behavior.  People who are mentally ill might do the same things over and over again, each time expecting a different outcome. 

What about when it is a situation where the person with BPD blames the other for everything, making it up all as it were out of mental illness, believes their own story, and tells it to others as if it is the truth? They are articulating it, but... .It's false.

I think that's just a variation of the same thing. It sounds disordered, but in a slightly different way.

[WonderingWhat]

I needed the validation that reconnecting gave me.  This need for validation is a life long need of mine.  Since finding out about BPD, and the end of my marriage to exBPDw, I have done a lot of inward looking at myself.  I now understand where this need for validation originated.  It goes way back to a time I didn't know nor could control what was going on in my life.  While I think knowing where this all started is important, it is not the most important thing.  Once we realize that we must learn to validate ourselves, then the true healing can begin.  I believe God made us to want, desire and need companionship and love from someone else.  But, in an ironic twist, it seems in order to be able to have that in a healthy way, we must be capable of living alone and being happy in that state.  In other words, when I am perfectly OK with living by myself and with myself, then I'm ready to be in a healthy relationship.  Self validation is the antedote to re-engagements, and to getting tangled up with another disordered person.  I admit this may be a over simplification.  I'm sure there is more to being able to have a healthy relationship.  But I'm pretty sure that until we do love ourselves as we should, we are not ready for a healthy relationship. 

Sure... .but I was perfectly happy living by myself and with myself. For ten years. Sure there were times I missed intimacy and the benefits, and I missed a deep romantic relationship, but I WAS happy. And that's what I don't understand myself. I didn't exactly "run" from relationships as if I was afraid of them, rather felt quite fine, strong and didn't feel "needy." I wanted to groom that. I had no desire and wasn't looking for a relationship when I met my SO. This is what kills me. 

There were red flags, I put my "foot down" so to speak a month after we met. The reply I got was so adult like, a "I'm sorry, and I promise to work on my insecurities" after I told her, "No, I really like you, am very fond of you, but I just am not willing to fix someone else's insecurities. I don't have them and don't want to take them on."

Her reply seemed adult enough. She asked me for a second chance, I agreed - I was VERY fond of her. And two months later... .more time is invested... more emotional fondness, more growth... .and they come out again... .and it was so much harder to deal with because of the investment.

[twistedmarriage]

  PDQuick

I now feel empowered with these words of wisdom... .look at the BPD as a whole person ... so accept that Hyde and Jekyll are on and the same... .with ultimately the same motivations...

power lies within the non... .the BPD just keeps looping... finally I think I get it.  So what causes a BPD to move forward? The lack of response and drama?  I could never understand why my uBPDh was not happy with his first wife... .beautiful, funny, great mom/wife who never questioned his actions or demanded his attention... but I guess thats why when I appeared (his angel he lied to say... .a halo of light around me -but now I'm a "2-bit whore" on the scene he thought I was his savior... .that he could rely on me to protect him and support him... .make him feel desired and important because I "validated" him or engaged with him... .and of course since I was a successful career woman then all the better... .so he probably felt "safe" about jumping ship to sail with me... .which was totally shocking to his first wife as she was used to his "recycling"... .he had left a few times before... so she really did not believe that he was gone until he skipped out on his son's football game to hang out with me... .(light bulb shining brighter)... .and his immediate family did not believe it either and probably remained supportive of the first wife because they probably thought his affair with me would blow over... .as all the other affairs had. But no one, including him, realized how determined I was to believe that the world was not filled with men like my NPD father... .so I chose to view him through rosy glasses and treated him like he was a victim ... .a victim of his parents and first wife... .he convinced me that they never really cared about him... .and pure ignorance had me up the ante even more when I

suggested that we all meet to discuss the issues at hand and to reassure his family and first wife that I had no interest in taking what was theirs.   So his BPD mind then had to quickly strangle any possibility of everyone getting along and so instead starts telling me that his family said horrific things about me.  (what I should of asked  myself back then was why would he encourage animosity between all of us if he was really serious about his "soulmate love for me?  And now when I'm ready to divorce if it can be peaceful he needs to drum up some drama so that he does not need to take responsibility for the r/s ending... .he never did file for divorce with his first wife... she filed... .and a month later when I snooped into his wallet he still had her photo and love notes displayed (in his wallet).  Wow!

Very interesting and very insightful thread.  Thank you all for sharing your wisdom and to help me grow.  

[diotima]

I think that a good rule of thumb, is that if they cannot articulate WHY they left you in the first place, in a way that makes sense to someone else besides you (because you could be in denial), then you have to face the real possibility that they don't understand why they left you and they are only compelled to repeat (ie, recycle) their behavior.

Yes, a thread full of good insights. I think I overlooked this many times, i.e., my ex not being able to articulate. When he tried to re-engage and clearly said he wanted me back he would then say that he didn't know what he wanted--I think he said that every time he also said he wanted me back. He said it the last time when I finally said no, and I am still wondering whether if I knew what I now know (about BPD) when he asked whether we could get past our "impasses"  something could have changed. Probably not, since the impasse from my side was the other women he chased as soon as he dysregulated. I am not so sure that he could get past that particular impasse. I know I cannot, but there is this lingering doubt in my mind because I refused to even discuss it because I was so hurt. I feel like it was my last chance to say: there has to be T. I then went NC. I don't know.

Diotima

[knowing]

VERY helpful workshop!  Looking back on our recycling (until i found this board), i admit i was generally the one who initiated re-engagement.  this board has helped me so much in seeing what *i* need to do for myself on my own end in terms of validation, etc., rather than hoping that Dr. Jekyll can come through for me (in hopes that Mr. Hyde would not reappear).  i am so thankful to all the members on this board who helped me see that i was STUBBORNLY holding onto an illusion of what i wanted our marriage to be, holding up blinders to all that was dysfunctional, violent, draining and destructive.

[Changed4safety]

Wow... .in the process of breaking up with my BPDbf.  There have been many breakups along the lines of "I hate you!  We're done!" and then three hours later we tacitly agree that Nothing Happened.  Except every single time, I believed and grieved.  I guess I sure didn't learn.

We tried and tried--he really did do a lot of work on himself, and so did I, but it's not going to be enough.  He's also bipolar and has PTSD, yippee.  And over the last few weeks as we deal with living together, still loving each other and wanting to stay friends... .I am realizing a lot about what I want and don't want.  I do fear the breakup--not so much true recycling but as has been mentioned here, inappropriate contact (he still wants to hang out and watch movies and TV, he still anticipates us playing online games together, and worst of all, I know he still anticipates me paying for things.  It's very, very hard to put down boundaries on that, and I'm hurting to the tune of having maxed out my cards and lost about $60K over the last few years trying to placate insatiable needs.)

We are seeing a therapist, I will bring up what my boundaries are and state them in front of a witness as it were about what is and isn't acceptable.  He takes meds and is a type I diabetic, so he could play the "I need my insulin" card.  I really hope not. 

Man, I am not looking forward to this, but I would rather deal with this than the violence, fear, and well... .there it is, FOG. 

[sm15000]

I think that a good rule of thumb, is that if they cannot articulate WHY they left you in the first place, in a way that makes sense to someone else besides you (because you could be in denial), then you have to face the real possibility that they don't understand why they left you and they are only compelled to repeat (ie, recycle) their behavior.

I ended it but i could tell him why. . .he could never articulate why his behaviour towards me and hence our relationship changed so dramatically and was now filled with manipulation, lies, mistrust and doubt.  Just kept going around and around in circles, was involved with other women, but seemed to be thinking/hoping he could get away with it.

Probably not, since the impasse from my side was the other women he chased as soon as he dysregulated.

This is how i feel. . .i think i could have dealt with all of his other BPD behaviours, knowing what i do now. . .but not the constant doubt of if he dysregulates, he'll be cheating.  As i've recovered i hold no false hopes of any intimate relationship with him. . .but i still miss the person and i deeply regret that it feels like we have ended on bad terms because of the need of NC.

[diotima]

Hmmm, I notice that my last post on this thread was in November and it is now February. No way do I want that BP crap back in my life. I do miss the good parts but there is no way my ex could have ever learned how not to be a serial cheater. He was incapable of emotional learning of any kind. Good riddance.

Diotima

[Marvin Martian]

I think what makes it so hard for me to stop "recycling" - if indeed that's what I've been doing - is the knowledge (reasonably sure - I'm more confident about it than many other things that I "know" that what drives the breakups or bad spells is mental disorder.

Because if something is driven by disorder, then there is always the possibility that upon, ah, re-ordering, that things will get better. That possibility is especially tantalizing when the person in question is your wife of many years, and the mother of your children.

So I don't think it's quite as simple as just hoping foolishly that a leopard will not have spots. I think it's more like hoping that a person who coughs on you all the time might eventually stop (or diminish) the coughing, with proper treatment.

Auspicious, your word were pretty helpful. I do accept that she isn't two persons, but one that can get a bit dys-regulated, and tipped over. But at times when she is working on things [like after she read high conflict couple] she is amazing. Yes she is really that amazing. But it is what it is today, and sometimes things are rough, but there is always hope for the future. And with hope and effort, skill, and understanding, she may be freed from the disorder, just in  the way people can recover from a physical ailment.

[tailspin]

We recycle to validate ourselves based upon the mistaken belief that external validation is the only truth.  Once we realize personal validation is the only truth... .then the need to be validated from an external source is extinguished.

I wanted him to want me again because I didn't believe I was worthy of being loved in the first place.  I was seeking something from him that didn't exist outside of myself.  I was seeking validation from a person that wasn't even capable of giving validation to himself.

We cannot expect anyone to give us anything we aren't willing to give ourself and this is true regardless if the relationship is healthy or disfunctional.

[eyvindr]

So much hard-earned and seriously good insight in this workshop thread.

[BatMasterson]

Although this is quite an old workshop, I'll post anyway as there's one category that is missing (I think).

From a lot of reading it sounds like many BPD partners are highly intelligent and can reason/debate very well.  This makes it hard to decide whether to recycle because even if you have decided to get out, they come back around with such persuasive insights and arguments that it makes you think that they have grown, have attained some level of self-awareness.   However, in my personal experience, if you look behind the arguments (which seem to avoid acknowledgement of the personal hurt they have inflicted on the non), there is very little substance or action to back it up.   You might get a "I'm sorry I hurt you" but the rest will be blaming the breakup on joint issues (imaginary or not) regarding communication and even faults attributed to you. If you have to re-engage (and I strongly encourage you not to), then have a clear idea of what concrete steps or actions that person needs to take before you'll get dragged back in.   

I think the one most vulnerable in the recycle scenario are those that have done everything in their power (moving mountains) to maintain and save the relationship yet are left high and dry without closure nonetheless.   They will be among the ones hurting the most and any re-engagement with a halfway plausible excuse for why the BPD left gives them one small straw to clutch at. 

[eyvindr]

Thanks for sharing, Bat. This certainly was true of my ex's behavior when trying to reconnect:

From a lot of reading it sounds like many BPD partners are highly intelligent and can reason/debate very well. This makes it hard to decide whether to recycle because even if you have decided to get out, they come back around with such persuasive insights and arguments that it makes you think that they have grown, have attained some level of self-awareness. However, in my personal experience, if you look behind the arguments (which seem to avoid acknowledgement of the personal hurt they have inflicted on the non), there is very little substance or action to back it up. You might get a "I'm sorry I hurt you" but the rest will be blaming the breakup on joint issues (imaginary or not) regarding communication and even faults attributed to you. If you have to re-engage (and I strongly encourage you not to), then have a clear idea of what concrete steps or actions that person needs to take before you'll get dragged back in.

After the first two break-ups, I insisted on a "plan of action" that I needed us to agree to in order for me to agree to reconciling; both times, she agreed to everything, but followed through on nothing that she agreed to. When I would follow up, she immediately became defensive and launched into a litany of excuses as to why she hadn't or couldn't do what she'd agreed to do -- and, often, it would include the accusation that "it wasn't fair and I shouldn't have agreed to it -- why don't you have to do anything?" Very frustrating.

I will say, the memory and the experiences I had have helped me stay on the path of detaching this last time around -- because I can't with any certainty say that I would believe any promise she'd make to change her approach to the r-ship, follow through with therapy, accept that her behaviors alienate the people who most care about her, etc. I know that without a serious commitment on her part to working on those things, there's no point in trying to have a relationship with her, except to repeat the same patterns and breakdowns.

[cherryblossom]

If it's really "out of sight out of mind" why do they pwBPD sometimes come back after breaking up?

They must hold onto the attachment all along. Maybe it i a defense mechanism that keeps it temporarily blocked? Is that what the splitting function does?

So does object constancy in some ways rekate to the ability to view someone as grey?

Basically do they view all humans as essentially non dependable one way or other? Is this because they think they are non dependable as people and project this out to others? The ability to view someone as a constant in their life whilst having some flaws and making mistakes is not tolerable to them? Is this because they cannot see themselves as a mix of good and flawed so cannot see others this way?  

[VitaminC]

Good questions, Cherryblossom!

I'm following this thread and hope that those who have more knowledge than I do will chime in. It's always good to think about things from several different angles, and sometimes we just need to understand to some degree what the internal logic of something essentially illogical is.

I am curious too.

 

[MovingOn23]

After the first two break-ups, I insisted on a "plan of action" that I needed us to agree to in order for me to agree to reconciling

Would you be willing to share examples of any of the items in that "plan of action?" I am currently in a recycling pattern (I've definitively told my BPDw twice that I am sure that I want to divorce, but both times I've ended up back in the relationship).