Month 6: BPD d13 in residential treatment center

[lbjnltx]

today we had our 3rd. Positive Peer Culture family therapy.

today we talked about

Shame vs. Guilt

 we read from the workbook discussing what it all means.

me:  shame is a negative, goes to a "way of being".  guilt can be a positive...a signal that change needs to occur...behavior needs to change.

BPDd-13:  "i felt shame"" it feels good to know that my mom always loved me and that my parents were always there for me.  i think I would have felt more shame if they had let me do what I wanted.  i can feel that  they love me now.  "

nahli: " feel it or know it?"

BPDd-13:  "i know it too."

me:  "what skills do you have now that you didn't have then to deal with feelings of shame should they occur in the future?"

BPDd-13:  "i will try to look at the positive, look for God's plan for me, and try not to blow things out of proportion to where it ruins my day or my life".

nahli:  "where did your feelings of shame come from?"

BPDd-13:  "feeling sorry for myself, negative self talk like loser, reject, and having no confidence that I could be useful or of value to others."

"when my mom wouldn't let me do what I wanted I believed she felt ashamed of me."

nahli:  "what can we do to communicate better and not trigger feelings of shame?"

BPDd-13:  "i don't have a problem with that anymore.  i don't feel I will be triggered into shame anymore.  i see now that when I am told "no" it may be because I might be endangering others.  i want to make the right choices for myself and others.  i can always make another plan when  told no."

me: " how about the option of asking for help in understanding or if a situation isn't considered safe by us you could ask one of us to be present."

BPDd-13:  "oh yeah...i need to look at the whole process and consider all sides of any disagreement."

nahli:  "what might happen if you don't use your skills?"

BPDd-13:  " we could have a blow up."

nahli:  "what happens to initiate a blow up?"

BPDd-13: " well first there is negative thinking, then assuming, followed by anger and then the blow up comes."

we moved onto Feelings of Shame Where They Come From

we read from the book a few paragraphs about how children internalize feelings of shame about other things and apply it to themselves, about how their behaviors become "shameful" instead of guilt.

nahli:  "what does that mean to  you mom?"

me:  "it just means that they are not differentiating between what they are responsible for and are able to  control and themselves.  they are owning something that isn't theirs to own to their own detriment."

dad:  "i grew up in a shabby home and was embarrassed to bring my friends to the house.  i grew up hearing 'you should be ashamed of yourself."  somehow I knew it was not a reflection on me...i understood that it was not of my making or choosing and did not let it affect my sense of self.  have we ever told you we were ashamed of you BPDd-13?"

BPDd-13: "no.  i felt shame still."

then the real issue surfaced.  sexual abuse.  i have long suspected some kind of inappropriate sexual contact...to what extend I could not know yet my motherly instincts told me something happened to my daughter.  this is what the paragraph says:

"sexual abuse is another way shame can develop.  a child or teen who is touched or talked to abusively may not have the emotional maturity and support to say "boy, I have to protect myself and tell someone who'll help me.  this person is invading my personal boundaries."  kids usually end up saying, "this must be my fault, and this is my problem.  i'm ashamed of myself because, if I were a better kid, this would not happen."

nahli:  "is this something you can relate to?"

BPDd-13:  "yes.  i did things I shouldn't have done.  i put myself in a tough spot.  i feel like it is my fault because I initiated it."

nahli:  "you recognize your responsibility for endangering yourself.  even though you started it does that mean you had to finish it?"

BPDd-13:  "no"

me:  "we are only responsible for own choices.  we are not responsible for other peoples actions or choices.  the shame can be perpetuated by secrecy.  sharing our experiences with other people takes it out of the dark and into the light where it loses its' power."

nahli:  "has it lost it's power over you?"

BPDd-13:  "no not really...it has only been a few seconds though.  i do feel better about myself I guess."

nahli:  "how does this seem to you mom and dad?"

me:  "i want you to know that you are not responsible for what someone else does.  you are only responsible for what you do willingly.  i am sad for you that this happened to you.  i need for you to understand that you are a very valuable human being. not because you are my daughter .  because you are you.  you deserve to be respected.  the choices we made in the past do not have to influence the choices we make in the future.  you have a choice.  you always have a choice.  i hope you are developing a high level of self esteem with healthy boundaries based on your own sense of self worth."

dad:  "you are loved with all our hearts.  we want you to have your own values that are healthy and work for you.  we don't want to take the fun out of your life we just want you to be safe."

we went on to read another paragraph about how the abused try to gain the approval of the abuser.

nahli:  "did you try to gain your abusers' approval?"

BPDd-13:  "yeah"

nahli:  "mom and dad may have perpetuated your feelings of shame.  even though the feelings of shame came from influences and events outside the home they perpetuated it because you would unload on them and they didn't know why.  does that make sense mom and dad?"

dad:  "i don't understand why she takes it all out on us."

nahli:  "because you were safe to take it out on.  mom, anything to add?"

me:  "we were there for you BPDd-13 every painful step of the way and we will always want good for you and will support you in making life changes for the better."

dad:  "there wasn't much that happened that lbjnltx didn't know about.  she did not always confront BPDd-13 about these things but she knew."

nahli:  " those things need to be brought up in therapy w/lorneta mom."

me:  "of course and they have been up  until now.  mothers' intuition told me that BPDd-13 was in danger.  that is why your world got smaller and smaller.  the boundaries were there and would not be moved for your protection.  if you would not protect yourself I would do my best to keep you safe until you could.  the smaller your world got the more you rebelled until you went to falcon ridge."

nahli:  "do you see why and how this all worked?"

BPDd-13:  "yes.  falcon ridge is a very small world."

we finished our session w/BPDd-13 requesting that we call her later today for our weekly social call.

i know there are a great deal of details missing from this account.  they are best left to be investigated by my BPDd-13's individual therapist.  i am vacillating between tears and anger right now.  i don't know that my husband even understands what just occur ed.  he is working today and we were on a conference call.  he may not have heard enough of the conversation to know that his daughter was sexually abused.  he will not be home tonight and I don't think it is best for him to be alone trying to deal with this...me either...perhaps when we talk later I will ask him to try to get home this evening anyway...tomorrow is our anniversary...

 :'(

lbjnltx

BPD d13 in residential treatment center «

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Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[pennifree]

   

Every mother's worst nightmare has just been proven right.  I am so sorry lbj.  Even though you knew, it must be harder to know and hear it from your D's own lips.  I can only imagine the ache your arms must feel not being able to comfort your d after that huge admission.  And the emptiness of your home with your DH away at a vulnerable time.

But, as you said, the important part now is the choices that are made from now on.  We may not be able to change the past, it's sting does lessen with time.  We can keep moving forward, making the best decsions we know how, with the knowledge we have to make today better and tomorrow a bright future.

There will be pain, but pain can heal when secrets are exposed to the light.

My thoughts are with you,dh and your precious D today.

pennifree   

[americanbelle]

So much progress has been made in the past few month.  Try not to allow this one converstation to negate all of that.  I think it hurts all of us as mother's when we even find out our DD's are sexually active at an early age.  My DD20 was abused 3 years ago while in a cocaine induced stupor and got herpes.  I was devastated and she didn't even know who did it.  She went on the medication and has never had a another issue.  Fortunately, your daughter is the a good place to help her deal with the abuse.  Eventually, God will take this pain away and you can move past it.  In the meantime, concentrate on how much progress has been made and that will bring you some peace.

 

[LionDreamer]

((OH lbj)) You must be so angry and filled with rage.   I can't imagine finding out what pain my child has been through.   Neverfear, this is a good anger filled with righteousness and reality.    It is good this came out in residential treatment.   Hopefully she can get the solid and steady support she needs from those who have dealt with this before.   

It makes it all the harder when a child is abused and then tries to please the abuser.   It brings up a well of shame and feeling responsible.    This is a good way to attack the issue.   It is not her fault even though she may have wanted to please in some way.   

The good news is that there is healing.  She has loving, supportive and caring parents.   She is in a good place now.   I was able to trace my own abuse to the age of 2.   I did not have parents who ever validated or supported me, in fact it was my father who abused me.    I have found healing.    Your daughter will as well.   As pennifree said, when you bring light to the darkness, there is healing. 

I hope you manage to enjoy your anniversary tomorrow.             

LD

[swampped]

Just to let you know that you are in my thoughts and prayers as well, Lbjnltx.  You have handled yourself incredibly well to this point, and have been an inspiration to all of us here.  I know you will work through this as well, and we will be rooting for you, DH and DD as you do.  I am amazed at the power of a mother's intuition about her children.  There might be some comfort in knowing that what you have suspected is finally out in the open.  Sending virtual     to you and your dear ones tonight.   Swampped

[Togetheritispossible]

   seriously! Now you can share her grief and love her. She is still a worthy young lady in spite of this.. She is in my prayers tonight as well as you and your MOM's heart that broke..

Please have a nice Anniversary and celebrate breakthru.

[lbjnltx]

thank you all for your kind words of support...i was correct in my belief that husband did not understand the extent of the contact that occurred concerning my daughter.   I don't know absolutely myself but when the terms "finish it" are used it doesn't seem to leave much room for speculation.  we have discussed how to proceed with this new issue and have decided we will wait for our daughter and her therapist to work together and take it one day at a time.

i told my husband that we need to be very careful that we support her and let her know that we are standing by her side.  we need to be very careful in the words we choose and the choices we make as far as having a confrontation with her abuser.  we need her to know that we are not ok with what has happened and that we want to defend her and protect other girls from this abuser...and at the same time not push her or add to her feelings of shame.  I will make absolutely sure that she understands completely that no matter what happens if we confront this person that we are here  and she is not to blame for his actions...if he points the finger at her I want her to have clarity on what she is responsible for and what she is not responsible for...i want her to know that if and when he denies it all we will still be there and believe her...i want her to know that she is loved and cherished by us and God and worthy of that love.  I want her to forgive herself and be able to move on with her life and the good things that the future holds for her.

lion dreamer...my dear friend and mentor,

I was able to trace my own abuse to the age of 2.   I did not have parents who ever validated or supported me, in fact it was my father who abused me. 

:'(

i want you to know that  you are worthy too!  you are a precious and dear kind person who deserves to be blessed and cherished...you are very valuable to me and many many more here at ftf...i pray that the people in your "real life" recognize this as well.

lbjnltx

[Thursday]

lbj,

No words. Devastating information. So sorry this happened to your DD.

thursday

[peaceplease]

lbjnltx,

I am so sorry that your dd was sexually abused.  Fortunately, she is talking about it in a place that can help her heal.  I am so sorry for the anger and hurt that you must feel.  She was just a child.

I will pray for you, husband and dd, too. 

You are amazing to come here and carry on forward and continue to share all with us.  Thank you for all that you do.  


peaceplease

[lbjnltx]

we had our 18th family therapy session today.

i had sent an email to her therapist about the "sexual abuse" information that came up...asking for guidance and more info if it was available.  they had a therapist session together on wed. am and BPDd-13 did not mention anything about the Positive Peer Culture therapy session we had the day before...t just came out of a staff meeting where she learned from nahli that the issue came up...then got my email...replied "follow my lead".

the session started off well w/BPDd-13 telling us she had gotten her "braclet privilege" and had a good equine therapist session w/her horse. therapist told us that she and BPDd-13 had spent some time before calling us talking about the sexual abuse issue.  therapist said BPDd-13 will talk and then you can ask her any questions you have. 

BPDd-13 said :  there was no intercourse, she never took her clothes off,

                    it was only touching and making out, sometimes w/boys

                    3 years older than her

when she was finished I asked her what about these incidents are abusive in her mind? she replied "because they were older than me". I asked her how she feels about these incidents now...she replied "i am fine with it because I am never going back to that again."  I asked her what need did you have that you were trying to meet...she replied "love and acceptance".  how are you different now?  what about you has changed?  she replied...my value of myself.  I am learning to put myself before others and do what is best for me the first time.  I want to treat others the way I would want to be treated. I want other people to respect and value me like I respect and value myself.

t:  it is a good thing to demand respect.  no one has the right to use you for their own gratification.  those same boys may try to convince you to be with them again.  what will you do if that happens? BPDd-13: tell them no.  tell them I didn't enjoy it and I made a mistake.  tell them to leave me alone.  get my mom to back me up if she is nearby or another adult.

t:  dad how does that make you feel to know that boys took advantage of your daughter?  dh:  it makes me upset and at the same time I see both sides of it.  if she is instigating it has to stop.

BPDd-13:  during Positive Peer Culture therapy nahli asked a question and you became defensive and blew it off.

me:  I don't know what  you are referring to.

(talking between therapist and BPDd-13)

t:  BPDd-13 can't remember.  how can we work on this in the future?  if parents don't see things the way you do?

BPDd-13:  I can tell them how I feel.  they tried to put the whole thing off on me and that hurt me and I would like for you to take a look at that.

dh:  I try to see both sides of things. mom does too.

(i tell husband to validate her feelings)

dh:  i'm sorry if I said something that hurt you.  I love  you very much and I don't want you to be hurting.

me:  I am so sorry that you are upset about this.  I would like to work on it if  you can tell me more.  was it when we were talking about us perpetuating shame at home and dad asked why you would take things out on us?

BPDd-13: no

me: was it when I told you that I get my feelings hurt sometimes when you are upset and saying things to me?

BPDd-13:  no and I said I was sorry for that.

me:  yes you did and I appreciate that.  I am trying to understand what you are talking about.  I write everything down and I have my notes here and I can't see anything that is upsetting in them.  do you think you might have misunderstood something we said?  if so we can clear that up now.

BPDd-13:  no I didn't misunderstand.  you said it and I had those feelings.

me:  i'm sorry that you are hurting.  I just don't think we explained anything away.  it simply did not happen.

COMPLETE MELTDOWN

t says they will call us back

15 min. later: 

BPDd-13:  i'm ok now.  I had to get into my Wise Mind.

t:  we worked through it.  BPDd-13 asked how she can get her brain to work differently... I told her to take a time out and give your emotions time to cool down and your Wise Mind time to come to the front.  so we will have to agree to disagree about this.

we said our goodbyes and I love yous.

i called the therapist and asked for a return call.

have to go...will finish later

[lbjnltx]

post continued:

the therapist called me  back a few hours later.  she said that my BPDd-13 was fine.  I read her the notes from our Positive Peer Culture session...asked her if she heard anything that could be mistaken for "explaining away" or "putting off on BPDd-13".  she said no. therapist suggested we call nahli and ask for his help with this. therapist tol me that when we were on the break during our therapist session that she told BPDd-13 that we had both validated her feelings and that she was needing something else from us and did not have the ability to tell us what that was.  I asked her if she thought the reason BPDd-13 is feeling this is because she filters everything through a negative mental attitude/victim mentality..?  she said...i don't think so.  I think this is a biological problem. which lead us to another discussion about neurofeedback therapy unavailability at the residential treatment center...still waiting...they would have to hire another therapist to take some of the case load of the neurofeedback t...don't have the funds at this time.

we discussed how BPDd-13 views the sexual contact w/boys older as "sexual abuse"...it is more being taken advantage of as BPDd-13 never said "no", "i don't want to", "stop", or was being forced.  because the boys are older it is not considered "consensual" because their age is an influence of authority. 

t reiterated how well BPDd-13 is doing.  even though she had a melt down she did pull herself together rather quickly and we did resolve the problem... somewhat.  she asked us not to engage in black and white thinking as some parents do when there is a set back...i assured her that I am still amazed at how well my BPDd-13 is doing and that we appreciate her and the staff at falcon ridge.

t tells me she is looking into mind fullness therapy...a bit different than dbt...through her research she is finding that dbt may not be the most affective for adolescents...she just finished her masters' thesis on dbt..has done much research...though she believes that the studies are all biased because they are done by dbt practitioners.  she just got in a few books on mindfulness therapy but has not had a chance to look at them yet.

i asked her if she has had a chance or found an appropriate evaluation to determine the cause of the psychotic features my BPDd-13 experiences.  she said that BPDd-13 has had no problems lately and she has not administered the evaluation she got from a study I found and forwarded to her.  the study concluded that symptoms of depression need not be severe to be accompanied by psychotic features if a person has psychotic depression.  she believes this is a possibility for my BPDd-13.  she is reluctant to administer the evaluation because my BPDd-13 is very impressionable.  she is afraid that BPDd-13 will look at the symptoms listed on the evaluation and believe she meets them all and use it as a crutch/reason not to work on self/change.

when we ended our conversation I called nahli..the Positive Peer Culture leader and explained what happened and asked him if he could recall anything from our Positive Peer Culture session tues. that would cause our BPDd-13 to believe we were "explaining away" or "putting it all on her".  he replied "no.  not that I can recall" and "i had some pretty intense sessions this week. let me think about this and visit w/BPDd-13".  I think that nahli would nail us to the wall if we did as BPDd-13 accuses...he doesn't let people get away with anything...that is what he is trained to do...even the parents...we will have to wait and see how this turns out...

i'm thinking it is the shame that she still feels about her sexual activity...she is actually putting it all on herself...there is a fine line here between "abuse" and "being taken advantage of"...i hope she can get more clarity and forgive herself and move on with her life in a positive and meaningful way.

thanks for hanging in there with me

lbjnltx

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[LionDreamer]

Wow lbjnltx,  how complicated things get so quickly.   I'm glad there doesn't seem to be the deeper forms of abuse but I agree there does appear to be so much shame surrounding your dd's feelings about this.   I wonder if she is also feeling "used" by these boys and that is a horrible feeling all on its own which can feed into issues of self-esteem, sense of self and our boundaries.   I think this is one piece of a complicated puzzle that is unraveling in a good way.  It is uncovering and getting to many hidden thought processes of your dd which make things so difficult to comprehend.   As I see it, the more issues are brought to the surface and aired out and shown the light of day, the more healing that will occur. 


LD

[lbjnltx]

yes ld,

i concur!

i have been thinking about what my BPDd-13 may be referring to...the only thing I can come up with is that my husband could not hear all that BPDd-13 said about being sexually abused...cell phone problem...and was not completely aware...perhaps she felt invalidated or dismissed or blamed.  here is my dh's reply to her: "you are loved with all our hearts.  we want you to have your own values that are healthy and work for you.  we don't want to take the fun out of your life we just want you to be safe."

this is all I can come up with... ?

lbjnltx

[lbjnltx]

feeling alone in this part of the journey the last few days.  husband is there to listen ... doesn't really seem affected by the goings on lately...glad for him ... I guess it is the lack of connection in the depths of concern I have for my daughters' future...fears. :'(

lbjnltx

[swampped]

Dear lbjnltx:  Please know you are not alone, not at all, as we are all here with you.  The work you have shared over the months of dd's residential treatment center time, as well as the processes you went through last spring have been invaluable to those of us who struggle to deal with this terrible problem of BPD.  FWIW, I wonder if you need a little break from "thinking",  about the sexual abuse issue, about the day to day work your dd is doing at the RTC, and especially about the future for your dd.  I find when I am going in circles, usually with thoughts spiraling downward, it is well for me to remember some AlAnon lessons:  about  "doing the next right thing", living this one day at a time, and most important, letting go and letting God.  Some time outside, especially when the sun is out as these days get shorter and darker, usually puts things in a better light, as it were.  And I wonder if your dh's lack of connection at this time is his way of doing just that---stepping back from the intensity of it all, just for a bit.

On another note, I remember deep feelings of guilt as a young teen when my sexual feelings were first awakened---compounded by my Catholic upbringing, to be sure, but  overwhelming, in my mind's eye.  Ironically, we were in the habit of frequent Confession during that period, and telling the priest some version of my sins always resulted in a feeling of relief, which lasted until the next "sin", which was usually within the week!   I wonder if dd may actually feel better after "confessing" to you and dh.  I also am reminded of the many many times our sons, especially the one married to the uBPD, have called in crisis, keeping husband and me awake all night, to feel so much better themselves after laying their burdens on us.  Seems as if they can go right back to sleep, while we are the ones who struggle with their issues!

All of which is to say, you are in my thoughts and prayers, as is your husband, your dd, and all of the people (and horses!) who are helping her deal with her struggles.  I hope the sun is shining in tx today, and hope you can find some peace.  With love,  Swampped  

[qcarolr]

lbj - I had to step back and ponder all this. There is so much in these few posts - so much. The area of sexual abuse - however one chooses to define it - is a strong one for me because of my own history from early childhood and a friend's dad.  Then on to my own blossoming senses of being a female and how all that unknowingly overshadowed so much of my sense of myself as a pre-adolescent, adolsescent, teenager, young adult ----- my memory of the early childhood experience came about at age 35 as my own daughter neared the age of when I was molested and I was melting down. So I had to get some perspective with myself before I could respond to your D14's situation.

While I was thinking, swampped has given you some great advice. Step back  from all this for a few days and fill your mind with other things. Let that amazing unconscious place inside you do it's work. Then go back a try to read your notes as if you ARE YOUR DAUGHTER. This may be hard for you.

I have done this, and from the place of a frightened young girl, already struggling with an immature sense of self (remember this is a huge part of BPD), I can see many places where what was said with sincere attention to being only supportive and validating could be FELT as 'putting it all on me". Let me know if, when, how you would like me to share this perception with you - it is only my puny human mind's humble interpretation. I am praying for guidance in offering to share this with you. You can PM me if you prefer.

I have spent a little time today reading in my Al Anon stuff about shame. And remembering the study done of women that showed those with BPD had a much higher level of shame than other mental illness dx. (I can find the reference for this, but maybe got it from you several months ago?) It has helped me today try to understand where your D14, you and your husband are in this healing process. As loving parents, who could not be there to protect their growing child, we have our own healing to do around sexual abuse issues. Adults healing from memories of sexual abuse have to work at forgiving their loving parents who could not know to be there to protect us as a child - even as we in so many ways blamed them for this lack of protection IN THAT MOMENT OF OUR LIFE.

You all are just starting on this healing path. There is so much to be grateful for that D14 is in this wonderfully supportive environment to do this painful and difficult work. And also that there is the chance for some space for you and husband to process this for yourselves. Be patient and kind with yourselves. Allow the space and time for the healing to take place.

You are in my heart and in my prayers.

qcr

[qcarolr]

post continued:

therapist tol me that when we were on the break during our therapist session that she told BPDd-13 that we had both validated her feelings and that she was needing something else from us and did not have the ability to tell us what that was.  I asked her if she thought the reason BPDd-13 is feeling this is because she filters everything through a negative mental attitude/victim mentality..?  she said...i don't think so.  I think this is a biological problem. which lead us to another discussion about neurofeedback therapy unavailability at the residential treatment center...still waiting...they would have to hire another therapist to take some of the case load of the neurofeedback t...don't have the funds at this time.

lbj - it really makes me stop when they keep bringing the 'biological problem" into the picture. What exactly are they refering to - an organic brain injury? a neurochemical imbalance? a cognitive issue they don't have testing to pin-point? She is very young and just starting the healing process of speaking out loud about her perceptions of being sexually abused - it is indeed hard to keep it all available to repeat back at a later time. Maybe it is a self-protective UNCONSCIOUS process to allow her the space and time to process these intense sessions with you and the various therapies at the residential treatment center. Let the work continue as there is so much progress being made here. Maybe the sexual abuse issues can be set aside for family discussion for a few weeks to allow all of you time to work through it all.

Just my feelings - take what you want and leave the rest.

qcr

[qcarolr]

lbj - here is link to download the research article in March 2007 American Journal of Pshychiatry, "Shame and Implicit Self-Concept in Women With Borderline Personality Disorder". I think my T gave a copy to me last year. It did help me understand my DD24 better and why it has been so hard to communicate with her. She keeps so much of her life secret - maybe even from herself. This is an important thing for me to remember when she struggles in her resistance to any kind of therapy or help from any professional advocate or case worker. Hope it give you some insight, even though your D14 is so young.

qcr

www.ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/reprint/164/3/500?RESULTFORMAT=1&hits=10&FIRSTINDEX=0&SEARCHID=1&gca=ajp%3B164%2F3%2F500&FIRSTPAGE=500&TITLE=shame+and+implicit+self-concept+in+women+with+borderline+personality+disorder&

[lbjnltx]

thanks for all your efforts to help qcarol,

i read that article a long time ago...maybe a year or more...seems like a lifetime.

i think what I struggle with the most is the conflicting messages and lack of clarity that surround this issue with my BPDd-13.

for the longest time she denied any kind of abuse...now she is saying she was abused...blames herself because she initiated it/started it...never was forced or said no, stop,...nothing...perhaps she has been picking up info from other girls at the residential treatment center as well as her therapist that because the boys were 3 years older that constitutes abuse.

i am beating myself up because I have a hard time seeing her as the victim..i see it as her being taken advantage of maybe...she sought these boys out online, engaged them in conversations about sex,  made covert plans to meet them in secluded places (they would come to her school and meet her while she waited for the bus), and allowed them to touch her inappropriately...it makes me sick to my stomach.  she got what she wanted...as sad as it makes me...i see her as a victim of her mental illness...not a sex abuse victim.  am I wrong?  can someone help me see how this is sexual abuse? 

she doesn't seem to be making a big deal out of being "sexually abused" stating that she won't go back there again...? ?  why isn't she angry?  my heart is sad for her and I have anger towards these older boys for not being more sensible...i don't want to feed her idea that she is a victim by telling her she is not to blame...she made a lot of bad choices.  if at any point she had expressed that she wanted things to stop I could clearly see her as a victim with responsibility...as it stands now... ?

the "biological" problems are the great unknown...t believes we are dealing with a. a frontal/rear brain injury from her toddler years or b. abnormal brain activity or c. chemical imbalance...d. any combo of the above.  I am hoping a qeeg will shed some light on this.

sorry if I am upsetting anyone...there are so many poor people who have suffered at the hands of an abuser and been victimized...i'm just not sure my daughter is one of them... ? :'(

lbjnltx

[melissa207]

lbj- have been following you through these many weeks

have learned so much from what you share

very good to see how your dau is progressing

I just wanted to stop in to let you know I totally get what your saying about the "sexual abuse" event

not that I have the answers your looking for

but I find it to be something I also struggle with because of a situation that my dau got herself in with a boy

I too see her more as a victim of her mental illness...although if she wanted to press charges against this boy...I would support her in that.

Anyway, one of the specialists working with her wrote a recommendation to the courts (not that it mattered...but..) in it she said

While no one blames H for being assaulted, her risk taking behaviors had escalated prior to the assault and, in fact, likely added to the

probability of ending up in the wrong place at the wrong time with a predatory individual. She was, in all likelihood, unaware of how much was endangering herself. It is a horrible thing when an innocent young person such as H finds herself in a situation in which she has lost control of her safety. I write this not to blame H. for what happened to her but because I believe without proper treatment and stabilization of her own self regard and judgment, H. will likely be at considerable risk of finding herself in other dangerous situations with other opportunistic perpetrators.

I think perhaps this is one of those things that is not black or white, not totally a right or wrong way to think about it...but maybe need to look at the bigger picture, does it really matter how this event is defined? Seems like the most important thing is your dau is getting the help she needs.

[qcarolr]

lbj -

sorry if I am upsetting anyone...there are so many poor people who have suffered at the hands of an abuser and been victimized...i'm just not sure my daughter is one of them... ? :'(

lbj - you are sharing a valuable and painful part of your life with all of us here. My feelings are mine to own. Your situation just brought the feelings closer to the surface and I took the opportunity to revisit them - it has been awhile.  And the reality is I have done a vast amount of healing. Just wanted to share a different perspective if it would be any help for you in sorting all this out.

The part that I have limited experience with, and others here DO have unfortunate experience with, is the facet of BPD that leads to accusations of abuse that are unfounded. It is all very confusing since we really cannot know how the pwBPD is thinking - their 'logic' is often not the same basis in reality as many of ours.

I appreciate you taking the time to talk a little more about your concerns with this whole area. And there is always the possiblity of influence of the others at the residential treatment center in your d14 shaping her thinking as issues come to the surface for her.

Maybe more valuable to think on is her statments that she believes you are 'putting it all on her'. That somehow your sincere statments of support and validation to her in the session were interpreted by her in such a negative way that she asked the therapist to deal with it with you. Am I reading this correctly?

Maybe my responses are only adding confusion, if so I apologize. I care so deeply for you and you have been such a great help to me, and so many others here. You think things out and can express them in such a clear understandable  language.

I'll just keep praying - guidance for you, an open mind so you can receive it, and I know you have the courage and confidence to use the guidance that comes for you. Try letting God have this one for a while - really let go.

Keeping you in my heart and my thoughts, qcr  

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[lbjnltx]

dear qcarol,

this statement from liondreamer may just be at the root of this...perhaps my BPDd-13 looked at her past differently until it was brought to her attention that she was being "used for their own gratification" and "disrespected"... I wonder if she is taking her anger that she feels towards herself and these boys out on us?... maybe some projection...?

I wonder if she is also feeling "used" by these boys and that is a horrible feeling all on its own which can feed into issues of self-esteem, sense of self and our boundaries.

That somehow your sincere statments of support and validation to her in the session were interpreted by her in such a negative way that she asked the therapist to deal with it with you. Am I reading this correctly?

perhaps my post is confusing ... the therapist is going to work w/BPDd-13 and then get back with us...trying to get some clarity on what she is referring to...

Try letting God have this one for a while - really let go.

unfortunately I can't ... our family therapist session is scheduled for tomorrow as the therapist will be out of town on thurs and friday...need to be prepared for anything I guess.  "talking" with you and the kind words from swamped have helped get me to a more clear picture of where my BPDd-13 might be coming from...it has also occurred to me that there is a possibility that there is more info to come in the future...i hope not...when we did the cleaning the slate in month 2 it was a wonderfully positive experience...i hope this turns out that way for my BPDd-13 too.

God bless

lbjnltx

[lbjnltx]

thank  you so much for your response melissa,

somehow I missed seeing it until now.  it is helpful to know that I am not alone in my struggles with how I view this...

although if she wanted to press charges against this boy...I would support her in that.

  I can't say the same for my daughters' "partners in crime"...legally we would have no grounds for charges...morally they are just as guilty as she is of poor judgement, lack of values, and making bad choices.

was there an age difference in your d's situation?  was this person in a position of authority over her?  how does she feel/view this situation now?

how do you keep from reinforcing the "victim card" while still letting her know the pain you feel for her.  how do you express the anger you feel towards the perpetrator without relieving her of personal responsibility for getting herself in this situation?

a lot of questions ... sorry...

does it really matter how this event is defined? Seems like the most important thing is your dau is getting the help she needs.

  only as it relates to the above questions.  in the conversation I had w/her therapist on the phone about   my BPDd-13 being "very impressionable" and "using ... as an excuse not to work on self"  I am treading lightly and without clarity...not my normal style...usually confident and sure of what I am doing and how I need to do it...leaving little room for error that could cause my BPDd-13's recovery to be jeopardized...very uncomfortable with this way of being...unsure...leads to feelings of fear for her future...i need to come to terms with this!

lbjnltx

[lbjnltx]

well, case manager just called...no session today...t in hospital w/a severe migraine...

we will have our social call w/BPDd-13 tomorrow as scheduled...don't know about family therapist session this week...will wait to here from the t.

lbjnltx

[melissa207]

lbj these are very tough things for me to think about

your questions are right on

there are no easy answers

i'll write more when things seem a little clearer

take care

[lbjnltx]

dear melissa,

i will walk with you emotionally on this where ever it takes us...together.

lbjnltx

[lbjnltx]

t called today to schedule a therapist session for tomorrow am.

we talked about this issue.  she does not know where BPDd-13 got the "sexual abuse" label for her experience.  says she has checked with staff and BPDd-13 has been doing very well. 

right after I talked to therapist we had our weekly social call to BPDd-13..she was so excited to tell me that the equine specialist has invited her to help him train a green 2 yr. old stud..she lunged him in the pen yesterday and worked on the join up today for a while.  she also was very excited to tell me that she applied for the transitional unit.  she will find out today if enough staff signed off on it...i guess we will find out tomorrow.

lbjnltx

[qcarolr]

lbj - this shows such resilience with d14. Perhaps talking more openly about the sexual issues has given her some peace from them for now. It is so exciting that she is growing growing. Sometimes I hold onto something that feels so unresolved long past when my child has let it go - at least for today.

Hope you find some peace for yourself today. What are you doing for yourself today?

qcr   

[lbjnltx]

thanks for reading qcarol,

What are you doing for yourself today?

the same thing I do for myself everyday...

wake early for "me" time...coffee, prayer, plan the day

spend time on this site reading, learning, posting

a busy day today as BPDd-13's weiner dog had to go to vet for a dental cleaning, my week to make the dessert for kids club at church (45 people), house work,laundry,caring for the  animals...hopefully time to work outside in the yard...it is such a beautiful day here...70 degrees, light breeze, sunshine...

any word on how d is doing?  where she stayed last night?

i hope the sun shines on  you today qcarol! 



lbjnltx

[qcarolr]

lbj - a busy day for you. I will update DD on my thread.

qcr